Poll: What's your opinion on Loli and Lolicon?

[xqxm]

> implying it could ever be anything else than pedophilia to be attracted to underage girls.

 

[Steppin Razor]

I agree on both points.

It's very likely - almost to the point of certainty - that "lolicon" will affect different people individually. If think it's safe to say that not all who view it will be paedophiles, and not all paedophiles who view it will ever criminally offend.

The question however, would be whether it makes some of them offend more than they otherwise would had they not viewed this specific kind of stuff. Or whether it makes them offend less than they otherwise would have due to being given a harmless outlet. It would not surprise me that both effects could be found, though it would be the more prevalent of them I'd go by when ethically evaluating it.

What I was getting at was really whether it instilled desires not already there, or amplified those desires into criminal behaviour on a more general level. There will always be sicko's who think that a street light flickering is a sign that they should go snuff someone out, but it's the general effect/risk on the "median" user of this specific stuff I was going for.

And you're quite right that the taboo surrounding this kind of stuff will make it exceedingly hard to perform a larger study. It could be done though, especially since people - here at least - seem quite open about it under internet anonymity.

Hmmm, I hadn't quite thought about that with the video games. Personally, I think that it will require something much more in-depth than just anonymous tests, both for gaming and lolicon. I'm thinking something more along the lines of psychologists and such being face to face with people being interviewed to get a complete picture. Mostly this is due to the fact that people could much easier lie and skew the results without human interaction.

The people saying they like lolicon in this thread have very little to lose apart from having a few people on the internet think they're sick and twisted, whereas a much broader study is going to run into the problem of having people that are pedophiles and viewers of lolicon taking part in it and lying to change the results of the study. If the results of the study could be used to show a link between viewing lolicon and an increased risk of child molestation, than governments would most likely attempt to pass legislation to ban it entirely. The child molesters that enjoy lolicon will lie to skew the results away from such a result. Hell, the majority of people that look at lolicon will most likely lie to stop such a result as it would directly impact them in a negative way.

Of course, if lolicon was actually proved to lead to an increased risk of child molestation, I would completely support a ban on it, but it's something that is going to be exceptionally difficult to prove either way.

 

[ANImaniac89]

I didn't say the the person with pedophilia was evil
but the pedophilia itself as a illness is evil
as long as a person doesn't act on their urges their not evil.
What makes it worse is that for lack of a better term you can catch pedophilia
I knew someone who was molested as a child. he was never watch by his mother and she let him wander around a large apartment alone, he made friend with a man in the building. and they played "Power Rangers" together and in this version of Power Rangers one had to get naked to morph. when he was older he went on to molest other including someone very close to me.
I'm told that it is not uncommon for victims of molestation to go on to molest others.

this person is not to come around anyone in my family (because of the restraining order)
but I do fell somewhat bad for him, maybe if what had happed to him never happed then maybe thing would be different. this is why I view pedophilia as evil.

I'm sorry that happened and I feel bad for him.
I know people who have had similar cases, not always the same but similar in respects.

The act of sexual molestation is an unforgivable one because of the amount of psychological damage it incurs.
But condemning everyone who is a paedophile halts our ability to understand.
A few years ago, the same reaction that paedophilia causes now would have been received for homosexuality.

I don't think it's right. And as I am the most open minded of my friends I have spoken to people who have these urges and don't like them.
But social stigma stops them talking about it openly, so it becomes repressed and that in turn causes psychological damage too.

Out of all the people in the world with an attraction to young people. How many will actually abuse?

2%? Less? I severely doubt it's much.

I'm not saying it should be accepted as a normal state of mind. But it should at least be understood. The urge is not something you can control. But your actions can be.

maybe 2% in the US or other developed nations. but travel to some of the dirt poor Asian or African county's and you'll be likely to find a significantly higher rate.
and I think that comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is a little wrong on one had you have two presumable adult making their own choses about sex and on the out you have an adult making the chose for a child. By making homosexuality less of a taboo you help end hate crimes, but by making pedophilia less taboo you give someone a bit of wiggle room to do something horrible with also I could see many more groups like NAMBLA forming.

this might seem a little wrong but in my opinion people with pedophilia urges should be made to have some sort of Clockwork Orange style re-education to prevent further problems.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

maybe 2% in the US or other developed nations. but travel to some of the dirt poor Asian or African county's and you'll be likely to find a significantly higher rate.
and I think that comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is a little wrong on one had you have two presumable adult making their own choses about sex and on the out you have an adult making the chose for a child. By making homosexuality less of a taboo you help end hate crimes, but by making pedophilia less taboo you give someone a bit of wiggle room to do something horrible with also I could see many more groups like NAMBLA forming.

this might seem a little wrong but in my opinion people with pedophilia urges should be made to have some sort of Clockwork Orange style re-education to prevent further problems.

That! You have to end that line of thought.

Homosexuality is liking someone of the same sex.

Paedophilia is liking a child.

Neither are acts, they're feelings.

Homosexual rape can happen. Don't assume that all paedophilia is rape and all homosexuality is consensual.

I see the problem with making paedophilia less socially taboo. But unless we do then repression will remain high, and that's what's more likely to turn a paedophile into a sexual predator.

We need to stop these social taboos and sexual repression. Otherwise we won't get anywhere. And things could get worse.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Technically, it's just harmless animation. Is it really that bad when compared to say, extreme gore? Honestly, I see nothing wrong with people actually watching videos involving lolicon. Some might be pedophiles but not all pedophiles are child molesters.

 

[Gigano]

...
Hmmm, I hadn't quite thought about that with the video games. Personally, I think that it will require something much more in-depth than just anonymous tests, both for gaming and lolicon. I'm thinking something more along the lines of psychologists and such being face to face with people being interviewed to get a complete picture. Mostly this is due to the fact that people could much easier lie and skew the results without human interaction.

The people saying they like lolicon in this thread have very little to lose apart from having a few people on the internet think they're sick and twisted, whereas a much broader study is going to run into the problem of having people that are pedophiles and viewers of lolicon taking part in it and lying to change the results of the study. If the results of the study could be used to show a link between viewing lolicon and an increased risk of child molestation, than governments would most likely attempt to pass legislation to ban it entirely. The child molesters that enjoy lolicon will lie to skew the results away from such a result. Hell, the majority of people that look at lolicon will most likely lie to stop such a result as it would directly impact them in a negative way.

Of course, if lolicon was actually proved to lead to an increased risk of child molestation, I would completely support a ban on it, but it's something that is going to be exceptionally difficult to prove either way.

Those would indeed be very practical problems which would affect the validity of any study. Lack of personal interaction with the subject group, and a vested interest present in it, would probably make that idea unfeasible, hadn't thought that through it seems.

I suppose some tests could be run on paedophiles already convicted to psychiatric treatment, but then you'd only get the result of the absolute worst group of viewers, not any general knowledge on its effects.

So yes, a credible study is going to be excessively hard to make. Which is why there'll probably be no basis for ethically condemning (or "vindicating") it anytime soon. So I'll have to stick to my view that I don't like it one bit (the erotic part of it that is; as my avatar would tell I have no active dislike of the general "loli" art style, only what it's used for in "lolicon"), but have no problem with people who do.

 

[ANImaniac89]

maybe 2% in the US or other developed nations. but travel to some of the dirt poor Asian or African county's and you'll be likely to find a significantly higher rate.
and I think that comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is a little wrong on one had you have two presumable adult making their own choses about sex and on the out you have an adult making the chose for a child. By making homosexuality less of a taboo you help end hate crimes, but by making pedophilia less taboo you give someone a bit of wiggle room to do something horrible with also I could see many more groups like NAMBLA forming.

this might seem a little wrong but in my opinion people with pedophilia urges should be made to have some sort of Clockwork Orange style re-education to prevent further problems.

That! You have to end that line of thought.

Homosexuality is liking someone of the same sex.

Paedophilia is liking a child.

Neither are acts, they're feelings.

Homosexual rape can happen. Don't assume that all paedophilia is rape and all homosexuality is consensual.

I see the problem with making paedophilia less socially taboo. But unless we do then repression will remain high, and that's what's more likely to turn a paedophile into a sexual predator.

We need to stop these social taboos and sexual repression. Otherwise we won't get anywhere. And things could get worse.

well I have said all I wish to say on the matter. note that most of my opinions come from my own dark sense of humor, anyway I'm done talking about icky things for today
anyways theirs a new Devil May Cry game coming out and I'm in a good mood (^_^)

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

well I have said all I wish to say on the matter. note that most of my opinions come from my own dark sense of humor, anyway I'm done talking about icky things for today
anyways theirs a new Devil May Cry game coming out and I'm in a good mood (^_^)

Yeah I was excited about that too. Down with Nero! Up with DMC3!

 

[Steppin Razor]

Those would indeed be very practical problems which would affect the validity of any study. Lack of personal interaction with the subject group, and a vested interest present in it, would probably make that idea unfeasible, hadn't thought that through it seems.

I suppose some tests could be run on paedophiles already convicted to psychiatric treatment, but then you'd only get the result of the absolute worst group of viewers, not any general knowledge on its effects.

So yes, a credible study is going to be excessively hard to make. Which is why there'll probably be no basis for ethically condemning (or "vindicating") it anytime soon. So I'll have to stick to my view that I don't like it one bit (the erotic part of it that is; as my avatar would tell I have no active dislike of the general "loli" art style, only what it's used for in "lolicon"), but have no problem with people who do.

For a full-blown study interviewing convicted pedophiles would be required as it would be an invaluable source of evidence to compare results with, but yeah, by itself it would be pretty useless.

Heh, well, even among people that like lolicon there are differences in taste. Personally, I don't particularly care for the rape ones, which makes it hard to look at a lot of lolicon as the vast majority of it seems to be of the hardcore rape variety.

 

[Super Toast]

snip

I understand the point you're making, but do you have to be such a fucking dickwad? And it's seems that you don't take criticism well. I don't agree with you, so you're gonna block me? Big fucking whoop. People like you can ruin entire threads.

 

[Marik2]

toddlercon

...I shouldnt have googled that, the description of it scared me D:

 

[Gigano]

...
For a full-blown study interviewing convicted pedophiles would be required as it would be an invaluable source of evidence to compare results with, but yeah, by itself it would be pretty useless.

Heh, well, even among people that like lolicon there are differences in taste. Personally, I don't particularly care for the rape ones, which makes it hard to look at a lot of lolicon as the vast majority of it seems to be of the hardcore rape variety.

Yes, I'd imagine that there are lot of sub-genres and genre-mix, but since none of them are conceptually inherent in the term of "lolicon" (which would be ecchi/hentai with characters in the "loli" art style, I believe?), I can hardly assess anyone who (only) labels themselves lolicons on more than that.

The rape thing - which I've heard before should be surprisingly common - is of course (to me even) more disgusting, but since the same objective arguments really apply to it, I can't really ethically condemn that one either. The idea of underage-looking characters being raped is however incredibly repulsive and sickening to me though, far more so than some "idealized" Anime fantasy world idea of them somehow being interested in having consensual sex with each other could ever be, questionable as I find it. I have no doubt my assessment of person would subjectively suffer greatly if they admitted to enjoying that kind of sub-genre rape stuff, also because it's considerably closer to how real-world molestation takes place. Even a harm principle idealist like me can only be so liberal...

 

[Jman1236]

As long as your behind closed doors in your house, you not doing anything illegal, and no one gets hurt/killed you can do want you want as far as I'm concerned.

Don't get me wrong Child porn is wrong no ifs/ands/or butts about it.

 

[Break]

/reported

/blocked

Have a nice day

You do know that you don't actually need to inform somebody that you've reporting or ignoring them, right? I mean, once you've already decided to pay no attention to someone, continuing to communicate with them like that doesn't really serve a purpose.

 

[child of lileth]

toddlercon

...I shouldnt have googled that, the description of it scared me D:

Yeah, as far as lolicon goes, I actually like alot of the art, and don't mind the hentai of it. I don't actively seek it out, but I don't mind it if I do find it. I agree wit hte people that like the art of it, and since there are often times loli that are even an around 16 or so, I think it's perfectly fine.

Todlercon on the other hand, is just disgusting no matter how I look at it. Nude children that young is bad enough. But when you add sexual acts involved with toddlers, that's just disgusting to me. I just can't see the appeal anyone could have in sexual acts with a child that hasn't even come close to starting to develop on that level.

I've only met a few toddlercons in my life, but those people seem to confuse toddlercon for "true loli".

 

[Negatempest]

Well, there is also the argument that most Anime women have lolicon features. Big eyes, round childlike face,....i'm sorry Julianking, but yeah your "Avatar/Icon" is a good example of what I mean. I have nothing against it, its just that I find it odd to argue over loli when ALOT is loli nowadays. Look at ALL the teen/pre-teen shows coming out, girls in short skirts, make-up, saying "like" all the time. Putting them in sexual positions as well (Don't even tell me you havn't noticed this. I saw in one show where a female teenager fell on top of a male lead where it looked like she was straddling him, I laughed and not because it was funny.)

 

[fletch_talon]

If its images of young girls (in body even if not in mind) in erotic situations/positions, its essentially paedophilia.
If all you're into is the "art style" then surely the characters portrayed can wear some clothes and not be placed in inappropriate sexual context.