Actually, I've beginning to think that it might have had something to do with the fact that there where vending machines that sold the ability to shoot wasps from your hand and Homing Missiles for 30 bucks in the THEATER DISTRICT!
Poll: Who REALLY Destroyed Rapture?
- Thread starter squidbuddy99
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I think Tenenbaum is the person who destroyed most of Rapture, wheter she did this direct or indirect.
Fontaine for going against Ryan. Even though it wasn't guaranteed that Ryan would prevail forever, Fontaine caused the faster downfall.
Most citizens in Rapure (even Ryan) wanted freedom and money. Rapture was a society based on hard work, intelligence and your own independance and freedom to own what you earned. Not handouts and government/religious controlAxolotl said:
"What makes you think that wealthy do no work? Most of Rapture's upper class consisted of commercial industrialists. Are you claiming that it is more difficult to press a button on an assembly line than to manage an entire company? The reason the upper class citizens made it to the upper class in Rapture is because they were more competent, intelligent, and innovative than their poorer neighbors. You are the parasite for implicitly suggesting that the productive members of society should be shackled to the unproductive for the sake of "fairness"."
This is the problem I have with objectivists, they are the stalwart defenders of CEOs and no one else. Sure plenty of work goes into managing a company but do you really think that the guy who owns a company is the one really doing all the work while everyone else is just someone pushing a button?
Fontaine actually said it best "someone has to clean the toilets" not everyone can own the company, someone has to do the actual day to day operations and objectivists want those day to day workers to be treated as nothing while the guy giving orders is practically worshipped.
I've read the works of Ayn Rand and even in her utopia of Galt's Gulch only the heads of the companies are invited, all the innocent hard working employees are left to starve to death.
This is the problem I have with objectivists, they are the stalwart defenders of CEOs and no one else. Sure plenty of work goes into managing a company but do you really think that the guy who owns a company is the one really doing all the work while everyone else is just someone pushing a button?
Fontaine actually said it best "someone has to clean the toilets" not everyone can own the company, someone has to do the actual day to day operations and objectivists want those day to day workers to be treated as nothing while the guy giving orders is practically worshipped.
I've read the works of Ayn Rand and even in her utopia of Galt's Gulch only the heads of the companies are invited, all the innocent hard working employees are left to starve to death.
As far as I can tell, there is no one culprit. Rapture went into the ground because of human nature as a whole: Ryan's pseudo-messianic complex; Fontaine's lust for wealth and power; Sofia Lamb's hubris; Jack's rotten, rotten luck; Tenebaum's horrible amitions; and the citizens' own vice and villainy. Every last one of them chipped in to make Rapture into the mess it was.
There might be something poetic about that.
There might be something poetic about that.
Who destroyed Rapture first? Ryan AND Fontaine.
Who destroyed Rapture in the end? Delta and Eleanor. If they hadn't existed, I believe Rapture would have been fine. Yes, Lambs ideals are horrible twisted and hypocritical, but the city was doing fine under her rule.
Who destroyed Rapture in the end? Delta and Eleanor. If they hadn't existed, I believe Rapture would have been fine. Yes, Lambs ideals are horrible twisted and hypocritical, but the city was doing fine under her rule.
And you just bought into a hell of a lot of the propaganda there or maybe you bought a different game then us. Cause when I played through I saw a great deal amount of people being subjected by the wealthy elite of rapture, living in poor conditions while working heavy labour to keep the place from filling with water. While on the other hand the upper class where living happy little lives oblivious to this fact.Dormin111 said:
I just ask you this:
Given that everyone on rapture had come through a committee, to show they had some talent to bring the city, why then was there a home for the poor to begin with?
- With such strict entry rules, a bloody committee just to be allowed in, the worker pool couldn't of that massive that people where out of jobs and sitting around sniffing Adam for fun. All the first generation people, and most of the second (which is all they had I believe) where highly trained individuals all accepted cause they could work hard and had skills... yet there was a problem with the poor? Something in your argument doesn't add up if the rapture propaganda was anything more then that... propaganda.
If these people where able to succeed on their own skill then why would they even follow lamb who was the opposite of that?
- Honestly she was a nut case of the other extreme. Still Would people, even those feeling hard done by, really have jumped from capitalistic to communistic extremes without a major catalysis such as... oh I don't know... finding out what Bullshit Ryans promises of 'skill to wealth' reall was?
Why, simply, did so many audio books point to the fact the majority of Raptures citizens where hard done by, even though all the while bitching about the greater and greater amount of work they had to do?
- By your logic the very fact they where working harder should of been off-set by greater living conditions and pay rates... which clearly wasn't the case and rarely is in any industry let me tell you... my position in the last factory I worked for was 'dissolved' to save a hundred thousand dollars... the work load didn't vanish, no it was forced onto the shoulders of others who got ZERO compensation for now doing the job of THREE people. Yes I have first hand information concerning how the real world works in these cases, thank you very much. Oh, interesting side story: that job was then strained to the point it couldn't be done and the very first year without that position a few hundred thousand dollars of damage to the machines happened, all causes no one was there to fix it when it broke. The CEO really deserved the large wages he got for that decision, didn't he....
And why all the ones from the upper class where oblivious to the workers class very existence?
- In fact this was a core reason for why a handful 'switched sides.' They learned just how horrid the conditions Ryan had for the working class really where! Did you even listen to the back story that was being offered?
Your whole post is nothing more then an ignorance of the very same reality Ryan sprouted. You are buying into the same idealism that founded rapture and can NOT sustain itself. That a person can somehow succeed through his skill alone is fiction. In reality this is not the case, here as well as in rapture. Only a rare few, that people like you hold up as if they are the norm, manage to make it on their own and you know what... I admire those people. In no way should someone with skill be held back from succeeding, be penalised for being stronger or smarter then someone else, I just know skill alone doesn't cut it. There are far more veritable in play for this lone one to be the key to them all.
I also point out, interestingly enough, self made wealthy people are also the most likely to give others a fair chance. I find that curious cause they understand something you seem to be lacking: that many times people need a helping hand to get out of situations that will easily hold them back from success. This isn't communism, it is just a simple understanding that a person may very well need a helping hand to becomes successful. That personal greed isn't, in the long run, very good for anyone without something to balance out the negative consequences of greed.
Off topic:
Besides, I do honestly believe being rich means you will have to work less and contribute less to society... cause this is reality. The majority of the upper classes consist of those born into wealth and power ... not only does this majority do little to deserve what has been handed to them since birth, they are less likely to give others a fair break. Many are willing to act as if the whole world exists to please them and only them. Worse, in our society are rewarded more so for that view then punished for it... how can this be right?
Please tell me you don't honestly believe just because someone sinks a million or so, money they where born with and did not earn, into a stock they somehow deserve to be rewarded with corporate fiefdoms where the average worker is nothing more then a slave to their whims, to be fired if they get too uppity and demand to be justly compensated for their work....
back on topic:
In most situations the upper class of rapture did nothing more then put an initial investment into the city itself, sure they should get something back for that but to be made into virtual kings while the workers are treated as slaves?
Is that not going a little too far?
So yeah, I do believe the down trodden of rapture rose up to try and take what they felt and indeed deserved. The way I am seeing it, those who had the skill to keep the very city itself alive... they where promised the moon and quickly became slaves with just enough to survive and no way to escape. To the point they rioted and destroyed the very city itself.
Can this not be traced back to the system Ryan embraced above all else?
If you go away with any bit of wisdom let it be this: A persons worth should never be measured by wealth alone!
Not communistic dribble, simple fact of reality.
PS: As someone who has worked behind a computer and a factory floor I can tell you the factory worker, the workers you are looking down on, puts far more hours and far more physical labour into producing something then the CEO who has enough time to practice his putting in his damn office.
Added: Oh, by the way, nice how you tried to label me a communist and put me up there with lamb as if that was an insult... I guess to someone who worships greed it would be though. No, the system was broken because it could never function to begin with, greed always means someone will be taken advantage of and when that is the whole working class.... oh yes, that really ends well doesn't it?
Oh, and I let everyone live whom I could... why? Cause I had no real reason to kill them in or out of character. IC they really had not done anything, deliberately, to impede my quest to find my daughter and OOC cause I was taking the good path as I tend to do in games unless I am feeling diabolical.
Pretty much "All Of The Above" (with the possible exception of Jack who was a clueless nitwit with remarkably good coping skills).
It's not like they made the breadcrumbs all that hard to follow. Just pay attention to those audio logs. Just about every character has logs which go through these stages:
It's not like they made the breadcrumbs all that hard to follow. Just pay attention to those audio logs. Just about every character has logs which go through these stages:
- 1. "I seem reasonably sane but have this radical ideal [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Higher_Standards]"
2. "Rapture/ADAM has allowed me to realize my ideals to a degree I never thought possible [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Limits_of_Imagination]"
3. "Wait, are my ideals leading me down the path to madness [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Symmetry]?" (or alternately logs from others [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Not_What_She_Wanted] point this out if the person is descending into madness).
4. "I'm a monster now! ARGHOBARGLE! ARGHOBARGLE! Woof! [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Aphrodite_Walking]"
5. Either a final audio log detailing their gruesome demise [http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Protection_Bond] or the player happens upon them in their monstrous state [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkieBQv_0H8] and is forced to bring them down.
Okay, I'ma try to reply to both of you with this one.Dormin111 said:
I don't think either system (objectivism, marxism) really works due to the people it is meant to work on. Now you might say they work in theory, but what sort of theory can't stand up to a trial? A failed theory.
The reason for that failure is the inherent short-sightedness of those who find themselves in charge. What makes human society so interesting is that we are a intrinsically selfish species being made to socialize. Even when someone proselytizes the "greater good" or "power to the people" they have something to gain personally from the movement. Whether it be more freedom, more food, or their neighbor's wife. Now these goals may coincide with the goals of a great many people, hence revolutions, but they are still personal goals. They are still selfish. Frank Fontaine realized this right away, and was unabashed in his manipulation of Rapture's lower class.
Rapture fell long before Frank Fontaine. It fell because those in charge did not have the vision to realize that a population spurned is a rebellious one. It fell because the dream of an objectivist utopia is practically impossible to realize for the same reason that a communist utopia will never see sustenance: shortsightedness. If those powerful industrialists had offered fair wage and expected equally competent service (which I can almost guarantee they didn't, since it saved their bottom line to just rehire another idiot at half the cost) then there never would have been call for more laborers, and Rapture would never have become full of dissidents.
The perfect economical world outlined by Ryan would have been a symbiosis. The industrialist would benefit from their employees' labor, and the employee would benefit from the industrialist's vision to create work and ability to pay their wage. That didn't happen. At one point, the guy "in charge" decided to take advantage of the guys underneath instead of making sure his employees were happy and working proficiently, since it paid off a little better in the short run. The term "parasite" could be accurate for either side of the labor/employer equation after an economic breakdown, since a parasite is the end result of a failed symbiosis. At this point in the cycle, the leader was the parasite, but after overeager labor unions and (if it ever came to that) state interference, it could easily have been the other way around.
In other words, it wasn't any one man or any one vision that caused the downfall of Rapture. It was the human inability to uphold extreme points of view. Sure, if every industrialist were like Hank Rearden or Andrew Wyatt, it would be feasible. But just one impurity in the system would bring the whole thing down, and that's just a weak system.