Question of the Day, September 2, 2010

[Archon]

To do a permanent death MMO, you have to imagine breaking the paradigm a bit.

Consider, for instance, a Beowulf-themed MMO. You go into it knowing that your character is going to die. The only question is how long he's going to live. You have a "Glory" score that accumulates as you face epic foes and don't die. When your character does finally die, Valkyries flie in and take him off to Valhalla, and you can go play him in PvP arenas with other dead heroes in Valhalla. Every six months or so, a special event occurs where the highest-Glory heroes in Valhalla have to do some sort of special PvE raid against giants or something.

Meanwhile, based on your Glory score of the character who just died, you unlock new some powers/equipment/feats for your next character that you roll up. (Similar to Dead Rising's mechanics, actually). There might be certian bad guys that, if they kill you, award massive posthumous glory for the glorious death. So if you make it all the way through the raid but die to the Giant King, you get +500 Glory.

Each of your individual character is just part of an overall meta-game of accumulating long-term Glory. You might go through a dozen characters over the course of your subscription, each time inching upward in Glory.

Anyway, that's off the top of my head. The point is that you could do an awesome permanent death MMO.

 

[mexicola]

There is something similar in GW. Yeah it's not really death but instead it's a title - you can get it if you reach experience equivalent of 100 levels (though the game only has 20) without dying a single time. Sure you don't have to restart since if you die you can just continue to play but a lot of people still end up remaking the character if they are set on getting it (I know I did).

So yeah I think it can be a nice challenge if it's just an optional fun way to challenge yourself. Yeah it opens room for griefing but that's why you should only play with your friends on such a character. Also - no pvp that just spells drama.

 

[Keava]

It would be pointless with how the MMOs are constructed currently. Such move would require a game tailored to the perma-death system where levels and items are not everything, with encounters balanced to the no-death scenario, consensual pvp, safe zones, cheap and widely available healing and plenty of other elements that don't really work well in massive multiplayer enviroment.

It was fine for Diablo where you could do weird things and leveling was a breeze through,. especially with a help of some other high level characters, but let's face it, encounters in Diablo weren't exactly engaging or complex. Simple tank and spank coupled with chugging potions like there was no tomorrow or eventually just abusing the kiting mechanics.

 

[Dana22]

Hardcore mode ? Meh, not in MMOs. Full-loot ? Yes please.

 

[Denamic]

Had that in EverQuest.
Tried it, died, got pissed off and never touched it again.

 

[iLikeHippos]

Snipped

Calm down, sweetie, you'll blow a gasket.

The current system is fine. An optional hardcore system would be fun, too.

Sorry for liking different things?

No, I was merely curious. Apologies if it seemed... Aggressive.

 

[Charli]

I am someone who makes retardedly silly mistakes.

So no. This is MMO hell.

 

[Lawyer105]

Perma-death MMO's are inherently flawed. People have already pointed out a number of good examples above.

Essentially, it comes down to the fact that gaming is about fun. For the vast majority, it's not fun to lose your character. So people won't take chances, and will only get involved in things they are CERTAIN to succeed at. Which is not fun either - just boring work.

No fun = no players. I've got no problem with a game that has this as an option. But if it's compulsory, the game will fail miserably. And if the 'hardcore' dudes get special treatment, it'll annoy the more casual gamers and the game will still fail.

I've seen DDO guilds that do this by choice. There's no mechanic for this, so whenever they die, they simply delete the character. But you'll note that almost none of these people ever do this on their MAIN character. And many of them store all their non-essential gear in a 'shared account' as an 'inheritance' for the next character.

SNIP

It's certainly possible to make an interesting theme for a perma-death MMO, and you're right that it almost certainly wouldn't work in a normal setting. But the problem is that many people are more attached to their CHARACTER than they are to the game. Especially the role-player types. And ultimately, it'll almost certainly end up as a severely niche game. Look at Eve Online. Even though they've made massive strides in pushing the game forward, it's still ultimately a niche game... and even then, a large number of the players avoid the perma-loss risks in Eve as much as possible.

 

[Yeq]

It could conceivably work if you levelled really, really quickly. People have been pointing out how scared someone who had put months into becoming level 80 on WoW would be, and how irritating it would be if you got killed just as you started to get powerful by some cheap ************ or a mob; but if you can get back to that stage in a few days or whatever then it's still a big deal but not I-am-so-angry-I-just-snapped-my-CD-oh-god-I-think-my-eyes-are-bleeding sort of thing.

 

[Raithnor]

I'd only support Permadeath in MMOs if it was like New Caprica City: Death = Permaban. Otherwise it's just a really annoying time sink.

Die in normal MMO = Respawn using resurrection mechcanic

Die in "Permadeath" MMO = Recreate character from scratch. The only difference is the amount of time invested in the character. You can still pick youself up and start over.

All it would do is create slightly more risk-adverse players, and would lower the average level of the game.

If I wanted that high-stress of a hobby I'd gamble for real-money, not play MMOs.

 

[Flying-Emu]

I would play this. The idea of real danger is intoxicating to me...

Might just make a new toon on an RP server in WoW.

 

[Nazulu]

Fun and challenging in games like Diablo 2 where you can level really quick. In a game like WOW though, it would be a pain unless it gave you something extra in the hard-core mode like better drops or better stats.

 

[icyneesan]

I get usually watch TV while i play MMOs so I'd probably get distracted by a episode of Friends or Two and a half men and die

I'd rather have more PK-based content. Something similar to how it was in the .hack animes.

*Goes and slaughters a bunch of noobs* BWUAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

[joshuaayt]

Aw, hell yeah. Roguelike MMO Hybrids, all the way.

 

[Vilcus]

Only if the game was 100% balanced between all characters, and it was impossible to be stun locked. It should also be impossible to kill someone in less than 1 minute because losing all of you progress in the blink of an eye to someone who is way more powerful than you is demented. Incorporated into this would be the inability for someone to attack you without your consent (other players, the normal enemies could of course go to town on you).

Basically I'd like to see something like this set in a sort of powering up system. You start off about as strong as everyone else, but you gain power much faster as you level, and once you reach max you become a mini raid boss or something. Then someone kills you and can take all of the gear you've obtained. It'd be interesting, because I've always wanted to have a war between a super powerful player character, and a whole bunch of weaker yet not pathetic characters.

 

[kwydjebo]

As long as it was an optional thing (like a dedicated server), but as mentioned would completely suck if you have to afk, or if your connection times out, or if you team with a doorknob who pulls a Leroy Jenkins.

And considering the time a lot of people often need to put into the games to level, it would be a feature I'm sure a lot of folks would be hesitant to devote time to. Would be fun to watch though....compare how a team in normal game progresses vs a team in Perma Death Mode. Bet most teams stack heavy with Tanks and healers and creep along with the utmost of caution.

 

[Valiance]

I'm honestly not sure if I'd want it or not. It depends on the case.

If Player vs. Player combat doesn't cause permadeath, I'd probably be alright with it. Like, I think player duels should be considered different. I also don't think that another player attempting to cause grief by intentionally failing in a group role should get other players killed. I only really like permanent death when I can blame myself and the game 100% for my death, not another player or luck or anything like that. I enjoy it in roguelikes and it's nice for Torchlight to have a 'hardcore' mode. But these aren't MMOGs.

Perhaps if mechanisms were put in to avoid not-kind-hearted players ruining the game, or instead of a permanent death, reward players for staying alive (sounds stupid and obvious but seriously), it might work better.

But if permanent death was to be introduced, players would need locations where they cannot be harmed, and ways to quickly transport themselves from the action to those locations. It's not a singleplayer game, you can't pause it. It's not a turn-based game, you can't just wait. If someone comes to the door when you're in the middle of combat, you don't want to lose your 200 hours of gameplay time invested. And that's just one very simple concern.

But if some players want it, why not give it to them? Make it optional.

 

[Twad]

perma-death in mmos, basically pure waste of all your progress (and time you PAID for) whenever you get lag, griefed or just unlucky? So if you were in a party you wont be able to play with them again for a LONG time.

Hell no. It works in D2 because we play online for free. In mmos it just doesnt work.