Question of the Day, September 2, 2010

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Rednog

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Nov 3, 2008
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Unless its a game where you only need to spend a few hours, or maybe a day or two to get to max level it wouldn't work. Way too many unforeseeable things that could result in a player's death and cost them day/moths/etc would undoubtabley lead to player rage and quitting across the board/
 

Nivag the Owl

Owl of Hyper-Intelligence
Oct 29, 2008
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I love the idea. Although it would infuriate me to no end, I think it would heighten aspiration for a decent character a LOT. It would also stop you from being a moron and running into every un-winnable fight (because who cares? There's respawn).
 

Dahemo

New member
Aug 16, 2008
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Cpu46 said:
If there was a separate server for this mode i would jump on it immediately. It sounds fun, but not if it was forced. It would make everyone more cautious and hopefully more friendly to each other.

Everyone else seems to be saying that the higher leveled players would be gods but realistically how long do you think it would take for them to be hunted down and mobbed at the first sign of them abusing their power.
I can't begin to express how much I disagree with you. More friendly? The amount of griefing I have to wade through in PvP servers, when death is merely a minor inconvenience, is astounding and this would be the holy grail to all griefers. Power level to cap, then annihilate mid-levellers who have sunk many, many hours into the game, or team up to pull down fellow end-gamers they don't like. It would be mob rule, and only those with the right connections in the right clan would avoid punishment.

Worst of all, it would be impossible to stand up to them, nobody would risk losing decent characters they have worked hard on to take on anyone powerful. Look at it this way, in a Lv. 100 cap game, it would take several Lv.80s to take down one Lv.100, and that lone 100 will account for several 80s before he buys it. Who would risk those odds?

The only way this could ever be feasible would be on non PvP servers, adding genuine spice to every dungeon and boss encounter. That said, this would dilute the endgame experience, as dungeons would have to be challenging (to be worth bothering with) but manageable enough that people who have put months of their life into the game will still want to risk character loss.

That sounds like an impossible proposition for even the best developers. I suppose you could use the ever tempting lure of "sweet loot" so new content becomes an arms race to ensure a level playing field among the elite, but the question remains:

Where would the fun be in all this?

I'm replaying Jade Empire on 360 at the minute, a game that lets you save whenever you want, and I'm remembering that simple pleasure of dieing, sighing, and reloading that has seen me through many top titles. To take that away, especially for the time and money invested by the armies of loyal MMO players, would be to remove the very fun games like WoW have brought us from their inception.

And that, my friends, would be a loss for all of us...
 

TriggerHappyAngel

Self-Important Angler Fish
Feb 17, 2010
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oh god, please not ... losing all your character progress isn't something that should be part of a game
 

Blackpapa

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May 26, 2010
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Cynical skeptic said:
There are no consequences on the internet. The best anyone can do is threaten a loss of investment (account suspension). Which is on about the same level as "go stand in the corner while I go talk to your mother, in the other room, on the other side of the building... God will punish you if you move!" Thus, "artificial" restrictions are required to keep things civil.

EVE isn't really an example of "permadeath" gameplay. Its high risk, but risk begets caution.
EVE isn't permadeath, but it has a very mature and thought out design. Permadeath is a very serious gameplay change, and I see no way a game that wasn't specifically designed with that in mind could easily integrate it.

Eve has a world where death has a high significance. While not a candidate for introducing permadeath, it's still closer than, say, Runescape.
 

Psydney

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Oct 29, 2009
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burntheartist said:
I think it's funny that there's this sense of ownership people have with their MMO toons.
I've been playing some of the same characters in WoW for four years now, raiding with friends who have been playing their characters for the same length of time. And because we seldom if ever see each other in person, our avatars have become part of the social face we present to each other. I think Blizzard intends that, or they wouldn't put any effort at all into emotes or dances - it's a way of fostering a virtual sense of community. That in turn is more likely to keep people playing the game, but let's not be cynical :)

Doesn't Guild Wars have a title - Survivor or some such - for people who don't ever die? That seems like a neat way to approach a hardcore mode to me - more carrot and less stick.
 

SouthpawFencer

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Jul 5, 2010
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(Please note that I don't play MMOs, so some of my assumptions about gameplay might be WAY off.)

I could see this working even in a setting like WOW, if everybody had access to the following statistics:

How many PCs a player with this ACCOUNT has killed or helped kill.
How much higher in level the player was for those kills.
Who hit first (so if a mob of bullies picks on the wrong guy and all get killed, everybody will see "Well, he killed ten guys who were 59 levels below him, but every single one of them attacked him FIRST").

That way, somebody can get to Level 80, and then start bullying low-level characters, but everybody is going to see the account-holder for what they are. Sooner or later, they're going to get taken down by one or more players and, if they were complete assholes, it's quite likely that people will continue killing them before they can rise to a high enough level to pose a major threat again.

Another approach might be to provide means to completely hide your equipment and power from everybody until the fight starts. When you can't tell if that guy in the cloak is a Level 1 Warrior or a Level 80 Warrior, you'll think twice before taking a swing just because you feel like being a jerk.

Generally, though, I think any MMO with perma-death would have to be designed from the ground-up with that in mind. I imaging that modifying WOW with a feature like this would fly about as well as the Spruce Goose (and for about as long).
 

Blackpapa

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May 26, 2010
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SouthpawFencer said:
(Please note that I don't play MMOs, so some of my assumptions about gameplay might be WAY off.)

How many PCs a player with this ACCOUNT has killed or helped kill.
How much higher in level the player was for those kills.
Who hit first (so if a mob of bullies picks on the wrong guy and all get killed, everybody will see "Well, he killed ten guys who were 59 levels below him, but every single one of them attacked him FIRST").

That way, somebody can get to Level 80, and then start bullying low-level characters, but everybody is going to see the account-holder for what they are. Sooner or later, they're going to get taken down by one or more players and, if they were complete assholes, it's quite likely that people will continue killing them before they can rise to a high enough level to pose a major threat again.

Another approach might be to provide means to completely hide your equipment and power from everybody until the fight starts. When you can't tell if that guy in the cloak is a Level 1 Warrior or a Level 80 Warrior, you'll think twice before taking a swing just because you feel like being a jerk.

Generally, though, I think any MMO with perma-death would have to be designed from the ground-up with that in mind. I imaging that modifying WOW with a feature like this would fly about as well as the Spruce Goose (and for about as long).
You're making the wrong assumption, that anybody will care about the given PC being an asshole ganker or a regular player. Nobody is going to form vigilante groups.
 

DeadlyYellow

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Jun 18, 2008
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I would find it rather enjoyable as long as the game wasn't brutally unforgivable. There's a vast difference between actual difficulty and fake difficulty, the former being something many developers can't seem to grasp anymore.
 

SouthpawFencer

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Jul 5, 2010
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archont said:
You're making the wrong assumption, that anybody will care about the given PC being an asshole ganker or a regular player. Nobody is going to form vigilante groups.
It's quite possible. Actually, you're probably right.

OTOH, it's also a matter of self-preservation. Sooner or later, you're likely to be their next target if the problem isn't dealt with. The threat is more pronounced when you stand to lose days/weeks/months of character development to these people. People coming together for mutual protection is pretty natural.

I imagine that if vigilante groups or gangs don't form for mutual protection, then this game system would empty itself out in no time. The whole project might prove to be an interesting study in anarchy theory, in fact.
 

Sacman

Don't Bend! Ascend!
May 15, 2008
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I think it would be a nice little rage inducing challenge...
 

Fatal-X

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Feb 17, 2010
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I enjoy hardcore games like Demon's Souls, but permanent death of your character is an ridiculous idea.
 

Cpu46

Gloria ex machina
Sep 21, 2009
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Dahemo said:
Cpu46 said:
If there was a separate server for this mode i would jump on it immediately. It sounds fun, but not if it was forced. It would make everyone more cautious and hopefully more friendly to each other.

Everyone else seems to be saying that the higher leveled players would be gods but realistically how long do you think it would take for them to be hunted down and mobbed at the first sign of them abusing their power.
I can't begin to express how much I disagree with you. More friendly? The amount of griefing I have to wade through in PvP servers, when death is merely a minor inconvenience, is astounding and this would be the holy grail to all griefers. Power level to cap, then annihilate mid-levellers who have sunk many, many hours into the game, or team up to pull down fellow end-gamers they don't like. It would be mob rule, and only those with the right connections in the right clan would avoid punishment.

Worst of all, it would be impossible to stand up to them, nobody would risk losing decent characters they have worked hard on to take on anyone powerful. Look at it this way, in a Lv. 100 cap game, it would take several Lv.80s to take down one Lv.100, and that lone 100 will account for several 80s before he buys it. Who would risk those odds?

The only way this could ever be feasible would be on non PvP servers, adding genuine spice to every dungeon and boss encounter. That said, this would dilute the endgame experience, as dungeons would have to be challenging (to be worth bothering with) but manageable enough that people who have put months of their life into the game will still want to risk character loss.

That sounds like an impossible proposition for even the best developers. I suppose you could use the ever tempting lure of "sweet loot" so new content becomes an arms race to ensure a level playing field among the elite, but the question remains:

Where would the fun be in all this?

I'm replaying Jade Empire on 360 at the minute, a game that lets you save whenever you want, and I'm remembering that simple pleasure of dieing, sighing, and reloading that has seen me through many top titles. To take that away, especially for the time and money invested by the armies of loyal MMO players, would be to remove the very fun games like WoW have brought us from their inception.

And that, my friends, would be a loss for all of us...
Ok, i see your point. I guess my statement comes from the fact that in the MMO i play players get to choose to revert to lvl 0 almost every two months and nobody really gets higher than lvl 40 or so. In such a game a Permadeath would not be crippling. But i see how in WOW or similar game such a system would be the source of much anguish and frustration.

But i still stand by my previous point. Any game using a permadeath system would have to be based around the fact that players will die and that griefers will exist. Maybe a lower level cap that would make a death less of a crippling blow and instead a chance to change your chosen class and play through in a different way.
 

Dr_Fred

Entitled person (until Monday)
Sep 2, 2010
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AS : I'm french and this is my first post here on the escapist. If i do something wrong, or if you just can't understand what i'm babbling... just let me know. ;)

Though i've been reading the Escapist for quite some time, i've never felt the need to create an account and participate... until now.

MMO with permadeath servers already exists. I'm playing on one right now, it's an official server created by the devs, and though there have been problems with it, it works fine. It seems many people here doubt that this sort of gameplay could even be possible, but the facts are there - just read.

It's a tactical MMORPG, that you may not know about (it's a french game from the beginning, but there are several foreign servers by now), called Dofus. The rules of the so-called "Heroic" server are simple : x3 rates, loser's stuff, gold and 10% of XP are split equally between his killers (wether they are monsters or players). The XP amount raises to 25% if he's a PK.

In this game, when a battle starts, it has to be fought until total extermination of either side (no fleeing, no external intervention). Attacking people is very easy and possible everywhere, except in warp maps and in newbie territory (which is very small, and worth nothing for leveling). The levelcap is 200 and it's VERY long to reach, even with these rates.

Despite all that, and after several nasty bug-abuse cheating stories from a famous PK guild, the server is still popular, and the devs manage to earn money from it. The server's population is generally much more mature and, well, hardcore, than other server's and i managed to get one character to level 145 without dying. Just by playing careful with a small bunch of friends (not in a big guild or anything).

With all these dangerous points (no fleeing from a battle, instant combat engagement anywhere from anyone, long way until toplevel and so on), the game still manages to work. In a standart MMO, it couldn't possibly be worse, could it ?

I've read seomewhere that nobody was going, in an MMO, to form up anti-PK teams. Well the fact is - people do care. They're slow, they're late, and they won't resurrect you (there is no known way to resurrect a player so far), but the main exchange city was, at one point of the server's history, took over by PKs. And by "took over" I mean that they owned the f-ing place, nobody could take a step anymore without being ganked, even using the city's miniwarps.

Guess what happened - now the PKs stay at home. They annoyed so many people so much that by now, when a gank starts in that city, a bunch of specialized PVP fighters show up from nowhere and, most of the time, the PKs won't survive the fight.

There are other mechanics that will appear by themselves - people argue that they keep dying in MMO, but it's simply because dying has almost no consequence (omigod, i'm going to earn 0,001% less XP for 2 minutes, how unfortunate !). If you don't want to see some ganker wearing your stuff, you'll just play in safer zones (and run whenever anyone you don't know shows up), and/or play with a solid team, like by joining a guild. Of course there will still be traitors, spies, and stuff, but it makes the game all the more fun. And, you know, realistic.

And for the last concern of "toplevel players will be an unkillable team"... well for starters, they're not a team, and that's the point. If they're toplevel, they have lots and lots of XP and stuff, and that makes them a prey as much as a hunter. On the server i mentionned before, 200-level tend to stay near the warps and just talk peacefully. Sometimes they do stuff (dungeons, etc...) with their guilds. And sometimes, we learn that one famous player got jumped by a bunch of near-but-not-quite toplevel players as he finished a bossfight, and killed, with or without his guildmates (depending on how trustworthy they were). Just like everyone else, except there's less of them and we talk about them more.

All that to say - yes, it can be cool. And yes, it can work. It's not a theory, it's a fact.