Realism, Except for women or Are there any real girls in video games.

[AdeptaSororitas]

I mean games that SPECIFICALLY set out to make "real" girls, such as Alyx from Half Life, they were actively trying to make a "normal" girl because geeks love nerdy girls and thats what some people consider real.

And yes, I fully understand that, and I actually plan to make a thread about it, but now is not the time and this is not the thread.

Also it is not my intention to start arguments, so I'd rather not debate whether Alyx is or isn't "real" I don't consider her so, so be it.

What do you mean by "real"?

Obviously it cannot be actually real, the game is by definition fictional.

What do you mean if you don't just mean "normal"?!?!?

Its not that "real" doesn't equal "normal" I mean they're trying to hard and it comes off forced. I understand that fundimentally fictional characters cannot be real, however they can FEEL real, or look real, and while Alyx is such an attempt, it comes off forced, like a bad actress in a movie.

 

[BanicRhys]

How can we truly tell what is real and what isn't? Watch the Matrix/Inception etc.

Hope from FF13 was a pretty real woman, she always bitched and constantly made mountains out of molehills. Plus, she didn't have large breasts because everyone knows that no one has large breasts in real life.

But seriously, you brauds are alright. I'm just a bitter person.

 

[AdeptaSororitas]

I understand that, I never stated I was asking WHY this is true, simply because I know the answer because so many people discuss it. MY question is, are there any girls who are "real" feeling or looking. Or at least on the way to being "real". Everything in movies is idealized, yet there are still movies with average or even below average looking female characters and or leads. Same with books, same with actual ART. I'm wondering if there are any example yet, some inkling as to what may yet come of our relatively young medium.

"Real" meaning what, exactly? Three-dimensional?

Non-idealized character, ones with flaws and personality and driving goals that aren't just plot devices. And girls who aren't simply T&A or skimpy sex outfits.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I understand that, I never stated I was asking WHY this is true, simply because I know the answer because so many people discuss it. MY question is, are there any girls who are "real" feeling or looking. Or at least on the way to being "real". Everything in movies is idealized, yet there are still movies with average or even below average looking female characters and or leads. Same with books, same with actual ART. I'm wondering if there are any example yet, some inkling as to what may yet come of our relatively young medium.

"Real" meaning what, exactly? Three-dimensional?

Non-idealized character, ones with flaws and personality and driving goals that aren't just plot devices. And girls who aren't simply T&A or skimpy sex outfits.

Oh, so T&A doesn't disqualify them, gotcha. In that case, even Ivy from Soul Calibur (i.e., poster girl for oversexualization in gaming) qualifies haha.

 

[AdeptaSororitas]

I understand that, I never stated I was asking WHY this is true, simply because I know the answer because so many people discuss it. MY question is, are there any girls who are "real" feeling or looking. Or at least on the way to being "real". Everything in movies is idealized, yet there are still movies with average or even below average looking female characters and or leads. Same with books, same with actual ART. I'm wondering if there are any example yet, some inkling as to what may yet come of our relatively young medium.

"Real" meaning what, exactly? Three-dimensional?

Non-idealized character, ones with flaws and personality and driving goals that aren't just plot devices. And girls who aren't simply T&A or skimpy sex outfits.

Oh, so T&A doesn't disqualify them, gotcha. In that case, even Ivy from Soul Calibur (i.e., poster girl for oversexualization in gaming) qualifies haha.

Okay for one: She is just a mass of plot devices for a personality/goals/flaws. And I said T&A DOES (typically) disqualify a girl from being "real" I'm not saying real girls are never like lingerie models, I'm just saying most aren't.

 

[William Keller]

There are "real" women in games almost precisely as much as there are "real" MEN in games.

Exactly! In most games, the main features given to players' avatars are that of a self-perpetuating, stereotypic "übermenschen": the so-called ultimate man (machistic, muscular, war/sex machine) and woman (almost perfect figure, erotic nudity, sexually stimulating behaviour). The point is, these images describe not REAL men or women, but the men and women our society regards as "perfect". So, under the current circumstances, a man with an artistic personality or a woman without the desire to please herself while playing a video game are virtually unwanted as players. The very gaming industry keeps them further and further from gaming.

"Why?" I ask myself often. I've come to realise, that the only games actually featuring real men and women are horror games (yep, Amnesia: The Dark Descent), for they present the human soul, both in male and female characters, with incredible precision. One can hear or see men in fear or despair, women fighting for their/their children's lives etc. Things that WE would do.
Unfortunately, most other game types feature the aforementioned over-masculine and over-feminine protagonists.

SLIGHTLY OUT OF SUBJECT: Actually, I don't find sexually "gifted" (come on, you got it, didn't you?) women to be attractive. I judge how attractive a lady is by looking at her face, not her chests or legs. Does anyone share this same thought?

 

[Kahunaburger]

I understand that, I never stated I was asking WHY this is true, simply because I know the answer because so many people discuss it. MY question is, are there any girls who are "real" feeling or looking. Or at least on the way to being "real". Everything in movies is idealized, yet there are still movies with average or even below average looking female characters and or leads. Same with books, same with actual ART. I'm wondering if there are any example yet, some inkling as to what may yet come of our relatively young medium.

"Real" meaning what, exactly? Three-dimensional?

Non-idealized character, ones with flaws and personality and driving goals that aren't just plot devices. And girls who aren't simply T&A or skimpy sex outfits.

Oh, so T&A doesn't disqualify them, gotcha. In that case, even Ivy from Soul Calibur (i.e., poster girl for oversexualization in gaming) qualifies haha.

Okay for one: She is just a mass of plot devices for a personality/goals/flaws. And I said T&A DOES (typically) disqualify a girl from being "real" I'm not saying real girls are never like lingerie models, I'm just saying most aren't.

Actually, not really - her involvement in the series' "plot" (insofar as it has a plot at all haha) is basically the result of her lineage, and her actual personality traits (her willpower, the stuff she can't work up the will to do, her intelligence, pragmatism, regrets, etc.) aren't really tied to the plot. And even if they were, a character's personality influencing how they behave in a story isn't a lack of "real-ness" - it's "show don't tell" (a storytelling maxim that the writers of Soul Calibur don't always seem to have a handle on.)

So in other words it's not hard to find "real female characters" by your definition - I just picked a character out of a hat from the last game I played, and it's not even a particularly good character.

It's also kind of silly that you think that a character being attractive makes them not "real" - there are attractive people IRL, you know.

 

[AdeptaSororitas]

And I said T&A DOES (typically) disqualify a girl from being "real" I'm not saying real girls are never like lingerie models, I'm just saying most aren't.

It's also kind of silly that you think that a character being attractive makes them not "real" - there are attractive people IRL, you know.

I have a feeling you aren't listening to me. And yes, the fact that Ivy is fighting for the soul edge is because the plot dictates she should. It's less of a character driving the plot and more plot driving the character, but this isn't at all what I'm debating or in fact, asking initially at all.

 

[Macgyver314]

Yes. In the Xbox 360 game "Maids with Balloons".

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Hi there, friendly neighborhood blah blah blah. Lets get straight to my point:

So while fussing around on some awesome Character Creation Engines suggested by all you delightful Escapees, when I realized that I only ever see "real" women on games that feature them, or, barring that, ATTEMPTS at "real" women. So I'm wondering one thing, solely because if I addressed the second I'd just get one million valid opinions I've all already heard, so, instead I ask: Are there any games you can think of that include "real" women? Either physically or emotionally, and yes, I know, some real women are sticks with balloons attached, or single note stereotypes, thus the use of quotations.

TLDR: You're a bad person, read the post, it's like, ONE paragraph.

Yes, though no actual existing women are like those real women in games, books, movies etc.



Everything in games (and those other media) is IDEALIZED, it's the perfect version of that thing in the minds of the creators. Real spaceships will never be like those things in star wars...but boy wouldn't it be cool if they were! Real swords don't cut mountains in half...but isn't a sword able to do that a cool thing? Real women aren't able to run and fight comfortably in sexy outfits or stiff beautiful gowns...but don't they look prettier doing that than just dressed as another soldier in our loved games?


That's what you should take out of every game you play, everything you see is a perfection of the original real object in the eyes of the creator. (at least this is true for the good ones, a lot of games just deliver what they think the fans will like to see, despite sometimes not actually considering it perfect, and that's the hack segment of them)

I understand that, I never stated I was asking WHY this is true, simply because I know the answer because so many people discuss it. MY question is, are there any girls who are "real" feeling or looking. Or at least on the way to being "real". Everything in movies is idealized, yet there are still movies with average or even below average looking female characters and or leads. Same with books, same with actual ART. I'm wondering if there are any example yet, some inkling as to what may yet come of our relatively young medium.

No, you don't get it, even those who you call average or below average are idealized and perfect, they're just not the idealized woman.

They're more specific, centered, ideals. They're the idealized normal person who keeps striving for a better life, the idealized ugly duck aiming to be a swan, hell, the idealized villain doesn't have anything positive in his ideal when contrasted to real life ones, usually the idealized villains are way more evil than any real ones, thus you see, ideal isn't always better.


Just because a woman is what you perceive as the average every-day woman it doesn't mean she isn't also the idealization of something, it just so happens that games don't usually go for that complex of a symbolism in their narrative thus both women and men are the most recognizable and easy to grasp ideals.


It's not sexism, it's just max-appeal marketing, damn dem cazuals !



If you want a strong woman who isn't idealized by sexuality or stuff like that, see Amaterasu, the goddess of sun in the marvel that is Okami. She is actually manifested as a wolf, she only acts dog-like, she doesn't speak and she saves the world, restores faith in gods and gives a lot of demons an ass-kicking. Now, yes, she's female...but that really doesn't have any effect over her ideal. She's the ideal good-doing-spirit of Japanese lore, her womanhood escapes her the moment she puts on the hide of Shiranui (aforementioned wolf) and the only thing letting you know she's actually a woman is the encyclopedic knowledge entailing as much.

 

[Of-the-Lion]

Ness's mother in Earthbound.
She isn't single.
She has children.
She's a stay-at-home mom.
She isn't "sexy"
and guess what?
NONE OF THAT MAKES HER A 'REAL WOMAN'.
Why? Because those are what is on the outside.
Stick with me. This isn't some mushy 'inner beauty' speech.
What makes Ness's mom a 'real woman' is how she behaves: she worries about her son, and comforts him when he is homesick. Why does she worry about Ness and why does it matter? BECAUSE she's a stay-at-home mom. Ness's Mother acts in a realistic way about her son being on an adventure. That is what makes a character a 'real woman'. It's the same thing as what makes a character a 'real man'. Not in the Macho Man Randy Savage sense but in the 'Lester from "Lester The Unlikely"' For those of you who don't follow AVGN, Lester is a the textbook nerd stereotype, pocket protector and all. He can't run fast or jump high. He actually cowers and screams when he sees a bat or a spider. What makes these characters different from Lara Croft and Duke Nukem is not that they aren't dripping with sex appeal. What makes them real is that they act they would in real life. They respond reasonably to what is going on in their world.

 

[Sansha]

I'd like to cite Alyx Vance as a real woman. Being female wasn't focused of exaggerated, she had realistic proportions and attitude, and could do as much as any man - succeeding as well as failing.
Chell comes close, but being the player, she doesn't have a written personality or traits, other than balls-out, unending perseverance.

Game devs should use this as a model for their female characters. They should be neither epic heroes, nor pathetic damsels. People should just be people, and not differentiate between genders.

 

[Rachel317]

There definitely aren't many. I'd say:

Elena Fisher (Uncharted series): She's relatively real, she has normal proportions, she has fear, excitement and anxiety and, whilst it could be argued that she's portrayed as being relatively perfect, she still has very human flaws and traits. She runs off ahead (which could put her in danger), she has stubborn and even reckless moments, but you never lose the feeling that, if she actually existed in real life, she would be exactly the same, and act in the same way.

Chloe Frazer (Uncharted 2): A little more realistic than Elena, in my opinion, in terms of being more complex and not just all bad or all good. She reacts as most people would, wants to save her own life and is angered when obstacles are put in front of her. She's sexy, but that sexuality doesn't get in the way of her doing her job, and she's conflicted on more than one level.

Trip (Enslaved): Again, real in the sense that she's not all bad or good, but a mixture of both at various times, which reflects normal people. She feels guilt over enslaving Monkey, but knows it is a necessary evil so that she can get back home alive.

All of these women are realistic in terms of body proportions (obviously Chloe has a bits of a butt and larger breasts than the other two, but you know the girl works damn hard for her body and she's not out of the realms of possibility in terms of being 'real') and emotional burden. All 3 show a range of emotions.
On that note, and I might get flamed for this, but I also think that Bayonetta is quite realistic to a certain extent. Not in terms of body proportions, but when she finally begins to show emotions, they're quite real. Her mothering of Cereza soon becomes realistic, and when she lets her vulnerabilities show, she becomes much more human than the elusiveness and confidence/arrogance she portrays throughout the game.

However, Chloe, Elena and Trip are the most realistic in general (body AND emotions). I also agree with the poster who mentioned Bonnie McFarlane.
If I think of any more I'll come back.

This is a great topic, OP! It really made me rack my brain trying to think of an answer. There really AREN'T many realistic women in games, are there??

 

[Fetzenfisch]

a good example was that this phenomenon does not make halt from nonhumans in fantasy games.
I found it idiotic when blizz changed the model of Wow's female troll from a , well female troll, to a blue human model with tiny tusks

 

[Risingblade]

Wouldn't they have to be based of a real person?

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

I thought of another one, Kaine from Nier.

Sure she dresses pretty skimpy, but theres a reason why she does this, and why she acts the way she does.

Except, y'know, Kaine's a hermaphrodite rather than a full woman.

 

[Gigano]

Well, good and nuanced characters - of either sex - are fairly hard to come by these days (not just in gaming). There's little reason to frame a discussion on a large scale artistic inability to depict realistic humans in some narrow context of gender. If most women suck on the realism scale in gaming, then it's only because most characters do so across all mediums.

And of course, realism is not necessarily the object fiction should strive for anyway.

 

[Porecomesis]

Let me see if I have this right before continuing: you are asking for a female in a video game that:

- Looks like your average female in that she has an average chest and rear end, and
- Acts like your average female in that she isn't a complete ***** and she's not flirtatious.

On the first point, good bloody luck finding them. It's human nature to be attracted to attractive people and repulsed by ugly, and advertisers know this. Yes, there are very broad definitions as to what counts as 'attractive' or 'ugly', but designers normally have a good idea how to appeal to the audience. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't change the fact that a vast majority find a specific woman or man attractive. That's how Top 10 Sexiest People lists exist; the more a person is voted for, the higher they're placed.

On the second point, that's also subjective. My sister is incredibly annoying, arrogant, bratty and she think she knows all. I am willing to bet $10 (I'm a bit stingy and careful with my money) that there are plenty of other girls like that. A lot of other women (that is, Twilight and Kingdom Hearts fans) are off their bloody rocker. A lot of other other women (like the girls in my school) are... well actually, they're not really that bad at all, but they're not exactly, shall we say, savvy. The last group is probably the closest I'll ever get to 'average', and they aren't even my ideal woman.

I do get a bit of what you're saying. I do not have a particular fondness for Tex (Red vs Blue: Season 8) and I really do think that some people do take it a bit too far [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GagBoobs]. Still, what is it that you WANT?