Should muslim women remove their veil in stores?
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Actually those cases are of MEN wearing those not women let alone the ones of the right belief to call for wearing them so from your links the people who should have them havn't done any such crimes.sequio said:
Note: the 2nd and 3rd link are the same crime case.
I'd say they shouldn't be required to remove them unless the stores plan on removing religion based themes completly from there shops if there asking one religion to not do something with no direct risk
Though i don't agree with the Muslum belief that women are required to wear them I'd never demand them to remove it to shop anyware.
If you really want to solve the "security risk" to stores, then I'd suggest:
1) Make it illegal to carry hidden knives in town centres and malls, and enable police to perform random searches.
2) Make it unfashionable for teenages to wear hoodies, or make it necessary for any hoodie wearer to identify themselves with photo ID upon entering a shop, if they insist on wearing it.
3) Build more jails, actually send the shop robbers / thieves / criminals etc to jails for significant amount of time, instead of the "community service" and "tagging" and whatever else they use, because that really isn't a deterrent to anyone.
But, since these ^ kind of things are too difficult to implement, we will just provok the muslim community unnecessarily, over an issue that is irrelevant to the real problems.......
1) Make it illegal to carry hidden knives in town centres and malls, and enable police to perform random searches.
2) Make it unfashionable for teenages to wear hoodies, or make it necessary for any hoodie wearer to identify themselves with photo ID upon entering a shop, if they insist on wearing it.
3) Build more jails, actually send the shop robbers / thieves / criminals etc to jails for significant amount of time, instead of the "community service" and "tagging" and whatever else they use, because that really isn't a deterrent to anyone.
But, since these ^ kind of things are too difficult to implement, we will just provok the muslim community unnecessarily, over an issue that is irrelevant to the real problems.......
Abedeus said:
OK,
1. "If you say a religion is stupid as hell (or any part of it) you are an intolerant racist."
Saying religion is stupid has nothing to do with anybody's race and therefore, cannot be racist; associating race with religion, however, is racial stereotyping. By calling racist there, you are pointing the finger directly at yourself, GJ!
2. "If my religion, for a completely stereotypical hypothetical - the Church of South Carolina, states that all men have the right to bear arms, and this is a world wide religion, are you going to let me walk around Australia with semi-automatic rifles?" "Are you actually comparing wearing a veil by women to walking with a pair of rifles on plain sight? Plus, if a religion tells you do use/wear firearms, hurt people and stuff it's more of a cult or a sect."
I actually find this an unusually apt simile, it says nothing about using the weapons, it only presents a greater risk. The weapons might not be loaded, or maybe they are, just like the person under any concealing mask has a chance of being an armed robber. But here's a different and more factual simile.
When photographs were first becoming popular some people believed they would steal your soul, that could be classified as a religious belief. If I were to say I believe this and that whenever I enter a store they have to immediately turn off all the cameras you'd say that's ridiculous! Isn't that in essence what you are doing by dressing up in an identity concealing costume, religious or otherwise?
Oh, and where I'm from, free speech only ends where there are slander/libel (bob likes to kick puppie) is, semi-plausible threats(i'm gonna kill bob's mom) and directly/semi-indirectly causing tangible harm(mob situations, inciting riots and such). Stating your your opinion is a right, and if I was to tell my president I think he's a retard, there's no direct legal way I can be prosecuted for that. Oh, and after being religious for 15 years, I think the religions I know much of are for the weak minded/willed as well. It's your right to be offended, and say so, but not to demand I be locked up for speaking my mind.
What? We are talking about Muslim women that have to wear a veil because of tradition.OutlawV said:
I'm calling myself a racist? You know how stupid that sounds?
Why would you carry a weapon that isn't loaded? Unless you want to cause a commotion, then you shouldn't be worried that someone will hit you with a baseball bat from behind if you enter a shop with such items.
Yes, and when there were first "moving pictures", people were afraid because they thought a train will hit them, or an animal will attack them.
One explanation: ignorance.
Actually, in Poland there was a case when a homeless guy was hunted by the police for calling our president... you can say that roughly translated, "jerk" or "asshole". He was convicted after 3 months of search and he had to pay a fine.
You got it all upside-down my friend: "Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term applied to language, ideas, policies, or behavior seen as seeking to minimize offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups. Conversely, the term "politically incorrect" is used to refer to language or ideas that may cause offense or that are unconstrained by orthodoxy."cuddly_tomato said:
Thus a politically correct move at this point would be to disagree on banning of hijabs. Might I say that youre pretty elitist here deciding if the new risks are worth it to take or not. Why you remind me of a typical multiculturalist who takes more and more risks because of political correctness and says there is something mystic that justifies the extra risks.
"So we got a few hijacked airplanes, surely you cant expect to ask muslim women/men their ID because veil is a cultural and religious thingy. The extra risks are surely worth it because we as the western culture need it for some unspecified reason that is important."
The rules should be same to everyone. Either you allow people having masks, motorcycle helmets and ninja outfits or you dont. Color/culture/gender gives you no extra rights.
I am waiting for the: "I dont need to get out of my box and argue with you since you dont agree with me LALALALALALA" that you did the last time we argued.
They dont have to.. They choose to.Abedeus said:
Why would you enter a store on a ninja outfit and then refuse to take it off for the time youre inside? The situation you imagined is about how we see this veil issue. It's completely ridiculous.Abedeus said:
So wait. They choose to wear them or is it sexist and they are forced to wear?Dele said:
For the first time in my life, I'm confused. When you people come to an agreement if that's sexist or free willed, lemme know.
Ninja outfit is neither an ethnic suit or a religious clothing.
If I saw someone dressed like that I would call 999, 112, 911 or any number hospital has in your country. And then ask someone from the psychiatry to come with a restraining jacket.
So you're you're saying you only think Muslims are a specific race? That's so much better! I'm only pointing out that in saying that, you're more racist than the person you're accusing.Abedeus said:
Lots of people carry firearms unloaded, often just for the threat, it also would be a sensible thing to do if you didn't ever want to shoot anyone, but were required to carry one by your religion's laws.
First that's what an Atheist says about all religion.
Second that's not an explanation, only an opinion; can you prove that a camera isn't stealing my immortal soul, or that making someone show their face is? Ignorance is lacking knowledge, knowledge is collected facts, facts are by definition, indisputable. Religion by nature cannot be proved or disproved by fact, that's why everyone is arguing in the first place.
Like I said, where I'm from, because I don't know the laws of every country, and I doubt you do either.
"I believe that this regulation against women showing their faces that exists in certain sects of Islamic belief is discriminatory against women and therefore not in keeping with recognized standards of reason and intelligence."Abedeus said:
Does a synonymous phrase without the swearing appease you? It shouldn't, that would be stupid as hell.
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with saying ****** even in insult. It may be rude and not something you or I would do but unless one intends to incite violence one has the right to say it.
Sorry, sorry, sorry. I mean 'answer it correctly'. Seeing as the only proof for a God that won't, by definition, give evidence of himself can be [a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarded"]personal and unquantifiable[/a], I'm going to go with, no, no one has answered it successfully.thedrop2zer0 said:
Before you start waving the Christian finger of concern I've spent many years looking for the answer, many years studying religion and if God hasn't felt it within his personal remit to make himself available to an open inquisitive mind he can sit on it and spin quite frankly.
You know what's really helping the world out? Belief in abosolute concepts written by men hundreds or thousands of years ago. Oh wait, its killing people by saying condoms are evil, promoting child suicide bombings and actively encouraging the demonisation of entire cultures. Yeah, thanks God. If you do really exist you're a dick.
What kind of fucked up deity gives a shit if half his population choose to wear low cut tops in the summer? Seriously?
Okay then, I take your word for it that Christianity, even though glorifying death (Jesus) , has nothing to do with murdering and other controversial deeds. Thanks for showing me the light mate.thedrop2zer0 said:
You see there are certain areas in the world (soon including Malmö, Sweden) where women are forced into wearing hijab under the punishment of rape, stoning and death if they fail to do so. To some feminists it is the same thing as nazi symbols are for a German. On a non-islamic society there is usually nothing forcing them to wear ninja outfits thus why I said they choose to wear them.Abedeus said:
Glad we reached an agreement. I too am sometimed tempted to do such drastic measures when I see somebody dressed up as a ghost/ninja and thus we should call a ban for women wearing such outfits on places where we need to see their faces.Abedeus said:
What the hell is this? No, seriously, what the hell is this? I thought this community was smarter than to regress into a volley of "You're stupid! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.83910#1182138]" "No, you're stupid! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.83910#1182212]" "No, you're stupid! [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.83910?page=3#1182949]" for 33 friggin posts. 33 friggin' posts! Over three pages! What the hell! Aren't we better than that?
This isn't about religion, this isn't about freedom of speech, this is about wearing something into a store. That's all. Everything else that's being lumped in right now, religion, freedom of speech, is fear-mongering, intentional or not. Some of us are afraid that, because of the attacks on September 11, the subsequent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the backlash, the bullshit, and the bombs, the Muslums are going to take away our rights, and destroy America, or England, or whatever country you're from.
Does our comfort as people superceed the comfort of other people? I think not. Not only is that stupid, as far as I'm concerned, it's inhumane; that, however, is my opinion, and I'm not going to call you a bastard or a racist or a Natzi for having a different one.
If you're worried about them concealing weapons, let me tell you something; I carry a pocketknife with me at all times, not because I intend to use it as a weapon, but because it's a useful tool. I've been known to walk across town with a hammer, too, on several occasions when a friend needed help building something. Are you going to have me arrested because my friend needed help fixing his house, but he didn't have an extra hammer? If the cops tell you you're full of crap, are you going to jump me yourself, out of fear? Are you?
While I can't speak for other nations, I know that we Americans allowed themselves to attack a soveregn nation out of paranoia; because we thought they were going to attack us again. We were scared, we were angry, and we wanted to do something. When America starts attacking itself out of paranoia, they've won; they destroyed everything America stood for.
Yes, I'm aware of the hypocracy in saying "This isn't about religion or freedom of speech but America. I'm not saying this is about America, though; this is a small matter. It's a small matter that could lead to bigger things, and that's what worries me.
As an aside...
I like how everyone ignored this. It seems so...tact.
Apologies to the mods for the reports I'm going to get. Just trying to make a point.
This isn't about religion, this isn't about freedom of speech, this is about wearing something into a store. That's all. Everything else that's being lumped in right now, religion, freedom of speech, is fear-mongering, intentional or not. Some of us are afraid that, because of the attacks on September 11, the subsequent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the backlash, the bullshit, and the bombs, the Muslums are going to take away our rights, and destroy America, or England, or whatever country you're from.
Does our comfort as people superceed the comfort of other people? I think not. Not only is that stupid, as far as I'm concerned, it's inhumane; that, however, is my opinion, and I'm not going to call you a bastard or a racist or a Natzi for having a different one.
If you're worried about them concealing weapons, let me tell you something; I carry a pocketknife with me at all times, not because I intend to use it as a weapon, but because it's a useful tool. I've been known to walk across town with a hammer, too, on several occasions when a friend needed help building something. Are you going to have me arrested because my friend needed help fixing his house, but he didn't have an extra hammer? If the cops tell you you're full of crap, are you going to jump me yourself, out of fear? Are you?
While I can't speak for other nations, I know that we Americans allowed themselves to attack a soveregn nation out of paranoia; because we thought they were going to attack us again. We were scared, we were angry, and we wanted to do something. When America starts attacking itself out of paranoia, they've won; they destroyed everything America stood for.
Yes, I'm aware of the hypocracy in saying "This isn't about religion or freedom of speech but America. I'm not saying this is about America, though; this is a small matter. It's a small matter that could lead to bigger things, and that's what worries me.
As an aside...
There we go. Simple solution, not everyone's happy, but everyone gets to do what they want. It works.The_root_of_all_evil said:
I like how everyone ignored this. It seems so...tact.
Apologies to the mods for the reports I'm going to get. Just trying to make a point.
When it comes down to it who are you going to follow:OutlawV said:
Rational humanism:
Beer is okay
Responsible sex is okay
All foods are okay (as long as its not people)
No boring meetings
Islam:
No beer
No pork
Multiple wives (gotta give it to them on that one, kind of)
No summer dresses verge on the barely legal side of public exposure
Stop and pray 5 (?) times a day