So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

[LadyRhian]

I am a feminist of the "Women should have equal rights with men, not be better than them" kind, and I am getting awfully offended at all the posters who seem to assume that a woman who is raped is drunk and dressing slutty, or that dressing in a provocative fashion is somehow "asking for it". Grandmothers, unattractive women, babies and other people are raped all the time. Rape is not about sex- it's about power and control. The rapist isn't desperate for sex, or so turned on he can't help himself- rape is a deliberate act. Taking advantage of a woman (or anyone else- do you think this only happens to women? No, it happens to men, who are much, much less likely to report it because of the stigma of being a man and being raped) who has had too much to drink and cannot give informed consent- is rape. If you are about to have sex with someone who is "So wasted, OMG!", that doesn't really know what they are doing- stop. You could be about to commit a rape. Your girlfriend or lover or wife doesn't "owe" their SO/Husband anything, either.

Rape culture, to me, is less about blaming all men for rape, than for society for de-stigmatizing things that are rape (Banging a drunk person who cannot make an informed choice, thinking all sex is okay in a relationship, etc) or worse, victim-blaming *You're dressed provocatively- you asked for it." Worst of all is cops who show up after a woman has been raped, see she is overweight, unattractive or too old to be considered prime dating material and tell her that she should be grateful that at least she got some sex. It's happened. And then there is the whole "Prostitutes can't be raped" mentality. Yes, they can. How you were dressed, how drunk you were, or your profession has nothing to do with it.

Yes, I agree that people who go out to get totally drunk off their ass deserve some of the blame, but they also deserve not to get taken advantage of in such a way. Most of the blame should still go to the rapist- and there needs to be a campaign geared towards men that says, "If they are too drunk to know what they are doing, and you have sex with them- you are to blame, and will carry the stigma of rape." Because the men that are having sex with drunk women need to think as well- and protect themselves, too.

 

[trooper6]

I fail to see why you guys are responding so vehemently against this. Is it because someone said the magic f word? No, not that one, the other one.

The problem lies in what people believe feminism is.

"Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women."

Too many people seem to think that Feminist means Matriarchy, which is simply not the case.

Also, why do you have double spaces at the end of each of your sentences?

It's how I was raised. It's an acceptable, though somewhat outdated, form of writing.

Hmm. Oh well, to each their own.

Double spacing at the ends of sentences was the standard way to type back in the days of typewriters. For those of us that learned to type back in the day of typewriters (and in the early transition to computers)...we were taught to automatically double space after a period. And if you touch type to the point that it is second nature, it is second nature to double space...you don't even think about it. I had to very consciously retrain myself to stop double spacing at the end of sentences because the new publishing standard seems to be single spacing now....though after I finish a manuscript, I still have to do a search and replace to get rid of the double spaces I'd still habitually put in there here and there.

On the original topic: The ad is sexist and problematic and also perpetuates a lot of myths about rape. Many, many rapists (most actually) are regular guys who don't think of their actions as rape. When I was in the Army and we had rape training, the training we got was about teaching us what is and what isn't consent, and when it isn't okay to have sex with someone you know...and a very, very large number of the regular "good" guys in the room had regularly forced sex on their girlfriends but figured it wasn't rape because she didn't yell or scream or fight or whatever. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to educate those average guys who are raping, to get them to realize that they are indeed raping and get them to stop it. We probably can't stop those small percentage of psychopaths, but we can educate the vast majority of those regular guys who are raping the women in their lives.

Luckily, there are an increasing number of organizations of men fighting against rape. So that, at least, is good.

 

[mcnally86]

A major obstacle to being logical occurs when a person reads a sentence and inserts a different meaning from what the words say. That's how:

"Avoiding irresponsible behavior reduces your chances of being raped."

becomes

"If you're irresponsible and you get raped, it's your fault."

The two statements are completely different. They aren't even similar or related. The problem with these feminist is that they see the first statement and then illogically jump to the second statement. Anyone who does that needs to go back to grade school to work on reading comprehension.

Sorry I don't see this. How is raping someone logical? How is anyone logical about being raped? It is a horrible experience. Granted prevention is good, but at the same time "she was asking for it" poster leg model is going to increase the amount of unreported crimes. This is a delicate subject being handled indelicately. You want to tell potential victims be careful but you also don't want rapes to go unreported because someone thought it was their fault when they saw this on the morning after. Unreported crimes only help criminals.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Should we stop teaching people about Stop, Drop, and Roll because we fear it places blame on burning people?

Just as someday you might get immolated, you might also get targeted by a rapist. There will always be rapists, like there will always be fire.

Fire is not a member of society, same as me. Fire does not (occasionally) be brought to trial where its lawyer claims I really wanted to be burned. If I get burned, I'll probably not be shamed into keeping it secret.

It's not always about blame. That kind of thinking makes it impossible for anyone to learn anything about safety.

Maybe if we lived in a society that didn't seek to blame the victim, there wouldn't be an issue, true. But that's not the case.

 

[Newtonyd]

You're claiming that women should know better than to dress provocatively because some men might think that she should expect to get raped for doing so, and they interpret that as a form of consent. That is victim blaming.

Wow guy, just wow. It is not victim blaming, it is FACT. Just like it is FACT that you increase your chances of injury by not wearing a helmet at a construction site.

Women can dress however they want. I'd be a liar if I told them I wanted them to dress in sweaters, because I appreciate the female body as much as the next guy. But with every action there are RISKS. Men seeing cleavage will be sexually attracted, it's as inevitable as gravity.

I've seen posters try to tell men this isn't a lead on before. Who knows whether it actually worked?

Telling a woman to take precautions and wear a helmet does NOT equal blame.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

Men get raped. Men who are raped do not report, more often than not, because it is taught that men can't be raped. The above poster mentioned that "Many, many rapists (most actually) are regular guys...", and this is just feeding into the same shit that they rail against.

Women rape people too. Men rape men. Women rape women. Women rape men. Guess what, get off this nonsense about it only being guys who rape.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

--

 

[Singularly Datarific]

Let them have their fun.
They're being idiots and missing the point, but their reaction to a non-existent problem is about as significant as said problem actually is.

 

[targren]

What I do find ever so slightly disturbing is the almost glamorous shot of an obviously young girl's nice legs. Should they really be attracting attention to an anti-rape ad using sexually provocative imagery? She's doing the toe-pointing thing and everything.

Wow. I'm glad I'm not the only one that that occurred to.

 

[Captain Booyah]

I fail to see why you guys are responding so vehemently against this. Is it because someone said the magic f word? No, not that one, the other one. Because this ad campaign is victim blaming at its best. It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape. It's making them the problem, not the rapists. That's wrong. Why make this ad as opposed to making ads saying "Don't get drunk and take advantage of women, ya prick." I mean, imagine if you were raped while drunk and then someone said it was your fault. How would you respond? All you were doing was having a typical fun night out. It's the rapists fault for raping you, not the other way around. Yes, you should always take precautions to protect yourself, but isn't always walking around in fear of rape counterproductive to having a fun night out? Should you not party on the grounds that you might be raped, just like you shouldn't drive a car in case a drunk driver hits you? Of course not.

Rape is the rapist's fault. Target your ads at them, not the victims.

Of course it's the rapist's fault, and of course some women are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, but you absolutely cannot deny that if you get so drunk that it impairs your judgement and common sense, then you are making yourself an easier target. To declare "I'm going to get as drunk as I want because I should be able to without getting molested" is correct in theory, but something that could only ever work in an ideal world. We do not live in an ideal world. Failing to recognise that and take precautions in order to protect yourself -- i.e. perhaps it's not such a good idea to down this sixth shot of straight vodka -- is irresponsible.

And how would you even go about teaching this "Don't rape" message? I agree with the sentiment, but normal guys don't need to be told not to rape women. If you are a rapist, then a poster telling you it's bad probably isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

 

[brainslurper]

While I do agree with the idea of responsible drinking as a way of preventing all kinds of unpleasant behavior, the point here is that the ad in question doesn't really talk about the person most to blame for rape. The rapists themselves.
By implying so much of the culpability on the victim or their friends, it accidentally side steps what should be the most important message, that rape is wrong. We wouldn't tell someone that got raped at a party when they drunk that it was "their fault" would we?
Well, no, not if we had a conscious or any sense of taste.
You know who likes to make fun of rape victims like that?
Violent J of the Insane Clown Posse...
Yeah, let THAT one sink in.

No shit rape is wrong. So is stealing. But people put locks on their doors and set their alarms regardless. If someones house gets burglarized, and they left their door open, you blame them. No amount of claiming something is wrong is ever going to prevent it from happening.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

You know what offends me about this whole thing?
Both the add and the criticism of it?

It assumes that all rapists are men and all victims of rape are women.
The only person I know who's ever been raped is a man, and this kind of attitude made it impossible for him to seek any kind of legal retribution or even get any help dealing with it emotionally.

On top of that, as a man I find it incredibly offensive to have intellectuals going around treating me as if my gender makes me a potential rapists who needs to be re-educated. I also have some hang-ups about outspoken feminists because they routinely beat me as a child and punished me for things I hadn't done.

I have never seen anyone express a position on this issue that hasn't been horribly hypocritical. I think that the issue of responsibility in some of these situations is a lot more complicated than either side is willing to admit. Black and white morality rarely squares very well with the real world.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And how would you even go about teaching this "Don't rape" message? I agree with the sentiment, but normal guys don't need to be told not to rape women. If you are a rapist, then a poster telling you it's bad probably isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

If you consider yourself a rapist, yes. Alot of men who commit rapes don't, that what they are doing isn't that bad, really.

 

[LadyRhian]

You're claiming that women should know better than to dress provocatively because some men might think that she should expect to get raped for doing so, and they interpret that as a form of consent. That is victim blaming.

Wow guy, just wow. It is not victim blaming, it is FACT. Just like it is FACT that you increase your chances of injury by not wearing a helmet at a construction site.

Women can dress however they want. I'd be a liar if I told them I wanted them to dress in sweaters, because I appreciate the female body as much as the next guy. But with every action there are RISKS. Men seeing cleavage will be sexually attracted, it's as inevitable as gravity.

I've seen posters try to tell men this isn't a lead on before. Who knows whether it actually worked?

Telling a woman to take precautions and wear a helmet does NOT equal blame.

Try this on for size:

 

[targren]

It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape. It's making them the problem, not the rapists. That's wrong. Why make this ad as opposed to making ads saying "Don't get drunk and take advantage of women, ya prick."

Because, genius, as has been pointed out many times... non-sociopathic people (men AND women) don't NEED a fucking poster to tell them not to rape somebody. The same reason we don't have posters saying "Don't chop up your neighbors and put them in your freezer." And If you ARE the kind of twisted fuck who would do it, then what the hell is an 11x20 poster going to do. Is a rapist going to see a poster and go "Oh damn! What the fuck was I thinking! I'm going to go work at a soup-kitchen, instead?" Somehow, yeah, I think not...

I mean, imagine if you were raped while drunk and then someone said it was your fault. How would you respond? All you were doing was having a typical fun night out. It's the rapists fault for raping you, not the other way around.

And this is the problem with feminists crybabying over this same thing every time. It's not any more "blaming the victim" then telling someone to lock their car doors if forced to drive through a city during a riot is 'blaming the victim'

There's an old saying: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

 

[manic_depressive13]

Instead of justifying this mindset by telling women not to dress revealingly, maybe we should be explaining to (potential) criminals that wearing provocative clothing does not mean their (potential) victim wants to have sex. Presuming revealing clothing was actually the reason most rapes occur, which it isn't.

LOL? So criminals all sit down around a round-table to discuss their past and future exploits, and there's always an empty seat for some activist to come every week to try and convince them not to do it?

That's completely insane.

What are you talking about. You think we shouldn't adress criminals when attempting to prevent crime? What's the point of ad campaigns against speeding or drink driving if you think that criminals can't be reasoned with? Sure, there are some people who will do something just because they can, but others simply might not understand how harmful their behaviour really is. They might not realise that they shouldn't wait for a girl to say "no" before they stop, but they should wait for her to say "yes" before they start. Is that really so absurd? Or do you think encouraging girl's to dress like nuns and pushing society back to the fifties is a more reasonable solution.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Sounds more like they are address the very valid issue of rape that isn't some violent mugger grabbing a woman and is instead a misunderstanding and terrible mistake. Also, Yeah we need to keep mindful that we need to put up measures to stop rapists as well as teaching rape defense, whatever those measures might be.

Wait, a balanced, proactive approach that teaches potential survivors to be safe and aware, and teaches everyone to not take advantage of people in a compromised state?

HERESY!

Oh noes, I have been spotted! *runs to clock-tower to hide from pitchfork mobs*

 

[Newtonyd]

Try this on for size:

Yah, I'm liking that one better than the old one I saw. I'd guess that ads like this might help.

But I'd also say that ads like the OP's help too.

No reason they can't both be used, right?

 

[Xin Baixiang]

Instead of justifying this mindset by telling women not to dress revealingly, maybe we should be explaining to (potential) criminals that wearing provocative clothing does not mean their (potential) victim wants to have sex. Presuming revealing clothing was actually the reason most rapes occur, which it isn't.

LOL? So criminals all sit down around a round-table to discuss their past and future exploits, and there's always an empty seat for some activist to come every week to try and convince them not to do it?

That's completely insane.

What are you talking about. You think we shouldn't adress criminals when attempting to prevent crime? What's the point of ad campaigns against speeding or drink driving if you think that criminals can't be reasoned with? Sure, there are some people who will do something just because they can, but others simply might not understand how harmful their behaviour really is. They might not realise that they shouldn't wait for a girl to say "no" before they stop, but they should wait for her to say "yes" before they start. Is that really so absurd? Or do you think encouraging girl's to dress like nuns and pushing society back to the fifties is a more reasonable solution.

How is it asking girls to dress like nuns to ask them to be aware of their surroundings and to keep an eye on their drinks, and their friends drinks? How is it setting society back to ask guys to keep an eye on their friends, and make sure that their friends don't get so blind-drunk that they don't see they are falling prey to a predator? How is it harmful to encourage anyone to be more proactive in being safe in their behaviour to avoid a negative outcome? I don't think that it is even conceivable that you are blaming someone, anyone, for another person taking advantage of them when telling them methods to avoid being taken advantage of.

It isn't victim blaming to tell people to not sign contracts in parking lots from the back of a van with "FRIE KANDYZ" on the side.

It isn't victim blaming to tell people that matches + kerosene = BBQ-Facemelting.

It isn't victim blaming to tell people that locking their doors is a good way to stop an opportunistic douchestain from stealing their plasma TV.

It is not victim blaming to tell people that limiting their drinks, and keeping an eye on their friends is a good way to avoid being unable to retain control of your actions.

Make your decisions, avoid many situations where rape occurs. You can't avoid all, sadly. But you can control what you do, and that's a lot.

 

[LadyRhian]

Try this on for size:

Yah, I'm liking that one better than the old one I saw. I'd guess that ads like this might help.

But I'd also say that ads like the OP's help too.

No reason they can't both be used, right?

True. I'm just saying that so many people here seem to think that a regular man will know if he's about to rape someone. Sometimes they don't. They don't know that taking advantage of someone who is drunk is rape. Or making their wife/girlfriend/whatever have sex with them when the woman doesn't want to is also rape. Rape isn't necessarily about violence or force, and a lot of people here don't seem to know that. Which Is why I do think a lot of men need to find out what rape is. And slut-shaming the woman because she happened to be wearing something provocative is blaming the victim. Yet, women wearing non-provocative clothes also get raped. So do women who aren't drunk. Or who aren't attractive/who aren't in a bad area/Aren't at a party.