The generation that recreated Sexism.

[dragonslayer32]

i think feminists are the most sexist people on the earth. dont get me wrong, i agree with the first wave but the second wave was a step too far. they blame men for everything bad, eg the way women are potrayed in the media, they blame the 'male gaze'. i blame women, and so should feminists; the majority of women care about their apperance, and this is mans fault? so yes, i do think that this is a generation that has recreated sexism, feminists are extremely sexists.

 

[LiquidGrape]

i think feminists are the most sexist people on the earth. dont get me wrong, i agree with the first wave but the second wave was a step too far. they blame men for everything bad, eg the way women are potrayed in the media, they blame the 'male gaze'. i blame women, and so should feminists; the majority of women care about their apperance, and this is mans fault? so yes, i do think that this is a generation that has recreated sexism, feminists are extremely sexists.

I...that's...
Picard, help me out here.

 

[Ryokai]

Sexism has been around for millenia, and it's a damn sight better today than it used to be. (Except in Iran or Saudi Arabia, where a women can be beaten for dressing 'immodestly', a man is allowed to rape his wife whenever he feels like it, and in the latter country, a women is not allowed to drive, vote, or walk outside alone.)

 

[maninahat]

Well, is it any different with males? You gave WoW as an example, so let me use it too: every single male in that game looks like he could compete in Mr. Olympia(except the Gnome and Goblin obviously, and the BElf at least has realistically large muscle masses).

As for voice chat and in-game communication, for some people out there it is simply a matter of trolling. If sexism is what gets under a woman's skin they will do it. I don't really treat females any different than anyone else except when I mistake them for a 14 year old(with some really shitty microphones there is no difference).

Essentially what this fish man said.

 

[Bagaloo]

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her?

Typically, it's because the player is controlling the male. Whilst more and more games are introducing the option to play as a female, most of them still only allow for a male protagonist. The 'love interest getting captured' plot isn't because people think that women are incapable of rescuing themselves; it's because if they did rescue themselves then the player wouldn't have anything to do.

Having the love interest get captured just provides the set-up for the game to take the player to a different area or start a different mission. It is generally not because the developer is a chauvinist.

*Edit*

On a side note, the reason most games only cater for a male protagonist is because demographically speaking, there are more male gamers. It would be costly to program in a female story as well, and also hire other voice actors etc, so instead they go with male only to save money.

On another side note, is it really that bad anyway? I imagine most women like the appearance of Nathan Drake or Ezio, so having them with the most screen time isn't actually that bad, is it? This is mostly the justification most males give when they choose to play as a female; 'If I'm going to spend X hours staring at an ass, it might as well be a nice one'.

 

[acosn]

I don't think it really went anywhere- if anything the sufferage movement has merely changed how it's perceived and dealt out, and, if anything, at the moment feminists are really exacerbating the problem.

 

[Meat.Shield]

I hate misogyny and condemn modern perpetrators as much as any femininist (I'm male). However at the same time I recognise that we've come along way, and the fact that people now think it's funny and offensive to say to a woman, "MAKE ME A SAMMICH!!!1!1!" reveals that this is now socially unacceptable behaviour and that we have progressed past what would have been thought as gender roles in the 1950s.

 

[DanielDeFig]

Very interesting topic to bing up. Its interesting how a lot of pple on this forum defend the "objectified, scantly-clad women in media" with "Men are also stereotyped by muscly brickheads/ Pimpmasters". but that's not he issue here, i think.

The "Scantly clad young men in suggestive positions" is an almost nonexistent phenomenon in the media, and i think its because todays world is still pretty male-centered. That, coupled with a widespread Homophobic culture ("Gay" is the most common negative word used today) makes it almost impossible to portray males in the media in the same manner as women currently are. Where is the "empowering males and their sexuality"? The female version is relatively well accepted and adopted by many women, who feel that the current media fad is not objectifying women, i don't know whether i have the right to classify it either way, im not a woman.

I do know that on those rare occasions i do encounter the bare-chested male on a magazine or the guy in only underwear in a tv ad, i feel kinda awkward. That makes me think, how do women feel EVERY DAY with billboards, tv ads, movies, games, etc? Are they used to it, do they feel equally awkward, but ultimately feel its better than being forced to cover up?

Judging by the women i know and talked to about this, i think most are happy to have more freedom, compared to decades previously, but also feel that the current media wave is bordering (if not reaching) an uncomfortable extreme, where women are being exploited under the label of "Empowering women"

 

[dodo1331]

Are you kidding me?

Girl: Oh look. A male (looked at me funny, didn't hire me, rejected my sexual advances)! I think I'll file for sexual harassment!

This happens a LOT. You know what the guy can do against this? Nothing. At ALL.

And if a guy is REALLY sexually harassed? He can screw off, men aren't sexually harassed! They must obviously like being sexually harassed because they are men! If a woman physically abuses a man? Why, that is ridiculous! Preposterous! Women are the ones who are domestically abused!

If anything, men are the ones being discriminated against.

While that is a gross exaggeration, there are plenty of examples when men are favoured in law over women. Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

Oh, don't worry Ms. Hello Kitty, I am quite in favor of your cause. I am very tired of the whole "men hold doors open for women" and all those shenanigans, and women should be getting equal pay, jobs, treatment, etc. I just think that the divorce and sexual harassment trials should be, you know, equal. Instead of the current system where women nearly always win sexual harassment lawsuits and the children from their former marriage.

I prefer to be called PAK, it's a little less condescending. :|

Are referring to common courtesy? Because I hold doors open for people too. It's not a shenanigan, it's just polite. My father was screwed out of a lot of money by his first wife, so I more than most understand where your anger stems from. I was cheated out of a very reputable private school because we were giving all of our money to her and her new husband; the money went straight into his RRSP instead of being used for my brother.

My point is that divorce is an ugly process, and regardless of gender, the former spouses are going to try and fuck the other over.

Also consider sexual harassment from the other point of view. Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified? Are you female? You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way, just like how white people will never understand what it means to be racially discriminated against on a large scale. While I'll admit that there are those who take advantage of the system, I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment.

My bad. Didn't mean it to be condescending. >_>

No, I know about that. I mean holding doors open exclusively for women or holding doors open for women BECAUSE they are women. Giving up seats for women BECAUSE they are women.

But will the man or the woman usually succeed in trying to get back at the other? The woman will be successful in most cases.

I am a male. In the cases where she actually feels objectified, sure, she can go ahead and file a sexual harassment lawsuit. But I have seen, on multiple occasions, a woman get her feelings hurt by a man and she decides to file a sexual harassment suit for no reason whatsoever. She gets away a lot of money and the man is left with the difficulty of finding another job with a sexual harassment lawsuit on his record.

Oh, don't worry Ms. Hello Kitty, I am quite in favor of your cause. I am very tired of the whole "men hold doors open for women" and all those shenanigans, and women should be getting equal pay, jobs, treatment, etc. I just think that the divorce and sexual harassment trials should be, you know, equal. Instead of the current system where women nearly always win sexual harassment lawsuits and the children from their former marriage.

I agree there are many sexual harassment fake business going on. On the other hand, ironically, you would be surprised how many men go unpunished when things climb up to rape.

AS for divorce, first women are the ones getting away with survival pensions because they usually are the ones earning much less. Doesn't happen when both earn the same or close. And children, well I say its totally mens fault (and I am a man). Men neglect a lot their role as child carer and let the women take the whole of it. Almost all men prefer to be at the pub getting drunk with friends, watch the football match or stay hours on his PC/console playing then look after the kids. Only when divorce comes they realise how much they love their children, ok not questioning we don't love our children, but surely we should spend the same time with them as their mothers do, and then we could have a strong case in court.

So if a father loved his children his entire life and the mom hated her children, the mom will get away with the children because of preconceived notions by the jury that men are bad care-givers?

I agree with you on that the mother is usually the better caregiver, but when the man is the better caregiver, 9 times out of 10 the mother is going to get the children anyway.

 

[Sebenko]

You know what? Fuck this stupid shit. As a liberal white male, I'm sick of being compelled to feel guilty for shit that isn't my fault. I'm done with it. Fuck everyone that doesn't agree.

For decades now I've been worried about the rights of women and minorities and everyone else besides me. Fuck it. What the fuck do you even want me to do about it? Yeah, equal rights are awesome. Nobody should be made to do anything they don't want to just because of how they were born. I get that.

So?

I'm sick of hearing about how God damned awful I am. I'm suffering from a serious case of guilt burnout. Okay sure, maybe I've never experienced what it's like to be a woman. Do want me to grow some boobs? What the hell do you want from me? I go out of my way to treat women better than men all the damn time, but all I ever hear is how men suck, and it's evil to like looking at attractive women and stupid shit like that. Fuck that noise. I'm playing games where magic is real, weapons are bigger than the dudes wielding them and the men are all muscle-bound assholes that solve everything by beating it into submission. So the fuck what if the women are unrealistic, everything else is too.

I agree. I'm constantly being told that my life is somehow wrong because some people have it worse.

There was the fucking annoying thing on BBC 3 advertising some show about third world slavery, and someone said, seriously, that "if you buy coffee, trainers or something and don't know where it's from, you're as bad as condoning slavery in the third world".
My first reaction was "I don't like any of that stuff anyway". My second was "well good, if you keep whining at me I'll go out and buy some delicious slave-coffee to spite you"

It's constant "you're a bad person" for no reason. Well fuck that, if you're so determined that I am a bad person, who am I to argue? I refuse to buy anything where I can't taste human suffering.

Why should I feel bad about being white because of slavery? It has fuck all to do with me. I'm not even related to anyone who was in that industry. Been too busy farming or driving trucks has my family.
Why should I feel bad about the oppression of such and such minority? Still nothing to do with me, and even if it was, there is nothing I can do.

Now where's my baby and rare orchid smoothie in seal pup fur cup?

 

[bobknowsall]

Also, I am a male.

You didn't really need to add that disclaimer, mate. There are plenty of "male feminists" out there, and they're just as bad as their female counterparts.

OT: I don't think we're recreating sexism, we're just letting anonymity go to our heads. There have always been sexist jackasses, and it just so happens that many of them gravitate towards online gaming. If you're taking your view of gender politics from games, you'll have a very skewed attitude compared to other people.

Sexism will always exist in some form, from the positive discrimination that led to "badass" female supporting characters to the discrimination that men face that labels us as moronic man-children who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag.

We need to rethink how we treat both sexes, because things are far from ideal at the moment.

 

[Mikkaddo]

Well, I think women today have more or less just ignored it. As well as the fact that most "women" (women being used here to mean those women that hold power in society, or are at least are well known) seem to ignore the trappings of videogames, anime and the fan art that goes with it.

And really, the fan art at least tends to go both ways. For every fanart of a scantily (excessively or otherwise) dressed woman, there's just as much out there of scantily clad (excessively or otherwise) men. The problem with this, especially on "slash fiction" is that the idea of sexualized women is not only common, it's accepted as being OK. But, on the other hand sexualized men, especially effeminate men, is considered (still) wrong and horrible and taboo and "nasty."

 

[Eleima]

tl;dr: Do you think our generation (media) is recreating sexism under a different label?
Do you think women help perpetuate it with a sort of stockholm-syndrome?
Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification?

Pinky swear, I read everything, I'm just quoting the questions because they're a very decent sum up. I think you raise very valid questions, and here's my two cents as a female gamer and somewhat of a feminist (don't start throwing eggs just yet, people).

Is our generation recreating sexism under a different label? I'm not sure, in fact, I'll be so bold as to say, I don't think so. I believe that we're still in the process of shedding certain misconceptions that have been firmly anchored in our collective psyche. We've come a long way, but there's still some work to be done.

Do I think women help perpetuate it? I want to say "hell, no", but unfortunately, I know that it can sometimes be all to see to fall back in the stereotypes that are comfortable. It's always easier to say "that guy was a total loser, he seduced me and left the second I wasn't looking" instead of admitting "curses, I was weak, and caved, and brought home someone I knew I shouldn't have been involved with in the first place". Am I being too hard? Maybe, but you can only listen to so many sob stories, patting friends on the back and soothingly murmur "there, there" before you start questioning a woman's judgment; maybe that makes me cynical. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps some women do react that way, because it's easier to succumb to that sort of phenomenon, than to stand up for yourself. That takes strength of a sort, to stop being a victim (and on this, I rejoin PinkAngelKitty [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.193262-The-generation-that-recreated-Sexism#6119291]'s view).

Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification? Oh yes... I've broached the subject in another thread, simply stating that representation of women in video games was one of my pet peeves. I'd like to believe that we are greater than the sum of our parts, and that women are a lot more than a pretty face, a set of breasts and a swaying tush. I'd sad to see that some characters are no more than that, and it's just as sad when a male character is no more than a guy with huuuge biceps, as Eukaryote [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.193262-The-generation-that-recreated-Sexism#6119072] pointed out.

In conclusion, it's sad to see that some woman still aren't considered as equals or as deserving as their male counterparts. Anyone who says that we've overcome that hurdle is oblivious: women still get lower paychecks than their male counterparts and they'll get turned down because they "might" get pregnant, I've seen it before. And I'm not talking about the sexual harassment lawsuits which dodo1331 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.193262-The-generation-that-recreated-Sexism#6119426] spoke of (some are justified, and some are women taking advantage of the system, which is morally reprehensible, and I'm not going to go into that, that's another story altogether). I'm talking about women having to work twice as hard to prove that they're just as capable as their male counterparts.
Finally (sorry, this is getting to be a lengthy conclusion), there's probably some sexism left in our society today, but it's up to us women to keep fighting. Things don't happen overnight, and it's a gradual change, and in time, there will be equality and, as Blindswordmaster [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.193262-The-generation-that-recreated-Sexism#6119212] said so well, both sexes will respect each other.

 

[Mikkaddo]

i think feminists are the most sexist people on the earth. dont get me wrong, i agree with the first wave but the second wave was a step too far. they blame men for everything bad, eg the way women are potrayed in the media, they blame the 'male gaze'. i blame women, and so should feminists; the majority of women care about their apperance, and this is mans fault? so yes, i do think that this is a generation that has recreated sexism, feminists are extremely sexists.

I...that's...

This quoted post may just be at least partially saveable. See, alot of what this poster is calling "second wave" feminism, is regarding normally women that are younger, around 12 (eek) to 26, wearing almost NOTHING, wearing things under what they are wearing to make what they have pop out and obvious, and then . . . when a man is caught by this obvious display that is admittedly designed to attract sexual attention, they get mad that there is sexual attention.

I think stating it as generally as just "all women" is extremely wrong naturally, but there is a piece of truth to all stereotypes. However, a high frequency does not equate to 100%.

But, as I said, there's some truth to all stereotypes. Otherwise they wouldn't be stereotypes. They come from somewhere. However, I feel it nessicary to stress once again, it is NOT under ANY circumstances 100% of women. Nor is it 100% of feminists, so I think this one may have just been a bit misguided.

 

[LiquidGrape]

i think feminists are the most sexist people on the earth. dont get me wrong, i agree with the first wave but the second wave was a step too far. they blame men for everything bad, eg the way women are potrayed in the media, they blame the 'male gaze'. i blame women, and so should feminists; the majority of women care about their apperance, and this is mans fault? so yes, i do think that this is a generation that has recreated sexism, feminists are extremely sexists.

I...that's...

This quoted post may just be at least partially saveable. See, alot of what this poster is calling "second wave" feminism, is regarding normally women that are younger, around 12 (eek) to 26, wearing almost NOTHING, wearing things under what they are wearing to make what they have pop out and obvious, and then . . . when a man is caught by this obvious display that is admittedly designed to attract sexual attention, they get mad that there is sexual attention.

I think stating it as generally as just "all women" is extremely wrong naturally, but there is a piece of truth to all stereotypes. However, a high frequency does not equate to 100%.

But, as I said, there's some truth to all stereotypes. Otherwise they wouldn't be stereotypes. They come from somewhere. However, I feel it nessicary to stress once again, it is NOT under ANY circumstances 100% of women. Nor is it 100% of feminists, so I think this one may have just been a bit misguided.

You are correct. It was the absolutes which bothered me. And that feminism somehow equated sexism, which is about as far from the point as you can get.
Just let me add that I am also convinced that the whole schism of sex is perpetuated by both men and women; otherwise it wouldn't be present at all.

 

[Foolishman1776]

Alright, my opinion. Stop it, stop making threads like these. Stop the hand wringing, stop trying to push forward this crazy liberal agenda. Women are not victims, and have not been victims historically any more than men. When I told my grandmother that I believed gender equity had been achieved, she scoffed and said that if that's the case, women had come down a step or two. Men have always bent over backwards for women, whole nations have been born or been destroyed for women. Men like the way women look, and women know this, they use it to their advantage all the time. As for the unrealistic standards and all that, blame that one on either a few ad execs, or women and gay men, who write all woman's interest magazines (I flipped through one, no one writing for them has ever talked to a man), and control the fashion industry, respectively.


Incidentally, divorces are overwhelmingly (70%) initiated by women these days. The number they are responsible for by treating their spouses like garbage may be a lot higher. Women are people too. They aren't any better or worse than men, they've just got free passes from society to act as they damn well please these days, and you're not helping.

 

[Foolishman1776]

i think feminists are the most sexist people on the earth. dont get me wrong, i agree with the first wave but the second wave was a step too far. they blame men for everything bad, eg the way women are potrayed in the media, they blame the 'male gaze'. i blame women, and so should feminists; the majority of women care about their apperance, and this is mans fault? so yes, i do think that this is a generation that has recreated sexism, feminists are extremely sexists.

I...that's...

This quoted post may just be at least partially saveable. See, alot of what this poster is calling "second wave" feminism, is regarding normally women that are younger, around 12 (eek) to 26, wearing almost NOTHING, wearing things under what they are wearing to make what they have pop out and obvious, and then . . . when a man is caught by this obvious display that is admittedly designed to attract sexual attention, they get mad that there is sexual attention.

I think stating it as generally as just "all women" is extremely wrong naturally, but there is a piece of truth to all stereotypes. However, a high frequency does not equate to 100%.

But, as I said, there's some truth to all stereotypes. Otherwise they wouldn't be stereotypes. They come from somewhere. However, I feel it nessicary to stress once again, it is NOT under ANY circumstances 100% of women. Nor is it 100% of feminists, so I think this one may have just been a bit misguided.

You are correct. It was the absolutes which bothered me. And that feminism somehow equated sexism, which is about as far from the point as you can get.
Just let me add that I am also convinced that the whole schism of sex is perpetuated by both men and women; otherwise it wouldn't be present at all.

Feminism is sexism, it's a violent movement started by dysfunctional women, look up Erin Pizey. Makes the point quite well, I think.

 

[Mikkaddo]

You are correct. It was the absolutes which bothered me. And that feminism somehow equated sexism, which is about as far from the point as you can get.
Just let me add that I am also convinced that the whole schism of sex is perpetuated by both men and women; otherwise it wouldn't be present at all.

too true, I think if you really want to get to the bottom of the sexism deal, and work toward removing it, you need to look past feminists, or chauvinists to the ones that started it. If we want to move PAST this apparent fear or aversion to sex, we need to find why it's there in the first place.

The schism about it exists now because of a sort of fear of sex, or an aversion to the whole sticking bits in other bits and wiggling them around. But, it wasn't just that way from the start. Look at nature, animals have a very calm and collected view of sex, being that it's nessicary for the whole species survival thing and all. But at some point it became wrong to talk about it. People stopped viewing it as natural, and started viewing it as something to be ashamed of . . .