The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Uhura]

snip

She has every right to discuss about the abuse she has received. Addressing the issue of online bullying and harassment is necessary and Anita is not the sole victim of this abuse. This is a topic that touches a lot of people and it needs to be talked about. Furthermore, you're not really the person to talk about how much physical, mental or traumatic impact the abuse has had on her. You don't know, you are not Anita.

The online harrasment is ongoing and not just a single incident that occurred two years ago. Just because she has not buckled under the pressure doesn't mean it hasn't had any effect on her and talking against online harassment does not make her a bad person.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I hope you're not saying
"Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways?"
Like it's a good thing?

Not wanting to put words in the mouths of others, i'll preface this as my opinion not Runic Knights.

Gender in games is token and/or superficial. Games do not tackle "what it means to be a woman" any less than they tackle "what it means to be a man".

What they often tackle is the Power fantasy in the physical sense. Which as I've been told is not an inherently male trait.

You reference Way of the Samurai in which you said it felt as though you were a man in a womans body. Now I haven't played Way of the Samurai so I don't know, but what traits of the protagonist made you feel this way?

Put in a more general way. What traits are inherently feminine? beyond the superficial of course.

What must a character do/say/feel/think to be considered a "woman"

well, let me get this out of the way. I've got not a thing against lesbians. I am one. Moving along.

Gender -can- be token, and superficial. I mean Chell seems to be there. Minus any iomplications of a relationship, Mario could be. Arguably Link.

But those tokens are dominantly male. And because it's superficial, and token, they don't have to be, but they are. That doesn't help the representation of women at all. It just makes it worse by making the representation of women smaller in the grand scheme of things.

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4. You can date women (in the loosest sense of the word. You sneak into their homes, find them, and then go some place more private. It's a weird minigame.), women can end up loving you which is generally the realm of male protagonist games.
When you unlock the ability to have a female avatar, nothing in the game changes to accomodate a female avatar. Swords remain the same size regardless if you're shorter in your female avatar, even. In way of the Samurai 3 you could be an old woman who's stooped down to half the height of the typical player model. It's kinda hillarious watching her slash up enemies.

What traits are inherently female? Not being referred to in masculine gender terms, I'd guess.
It's like a guy being called "Miss" and "ma'am" often despite looking like Terry Crews.

What must a woman say/think/feel to be a woman? There's no solid answer as this varies from person to person.
In general terms? Having a boyfriend/husband which is something, for the most part, that never happens to women if they're protagonists.

With the variety of people out there, it seems to fall unto a handful of nearly blank slate women, if not blank slate women to cover them. This is likely part of why what few female characters we get to play as get ridiculed so much in that it's really hard to relate to them beyond gender. This is liikely because there's so few to pick from.

Yeah, guys generally have a small portfolio of personalities, too. Usually homicidal and maniac. Still I feel like they're far more varied than women. GTAV for instance. Those 3 guys aren't entirely blank slates. They have personality traits.
There's guys with families, relationships, and love interests.
I'm not saying that guys universally relate to the guys they're playing as but lets not pretend they don't have better odds of finding someone they can relate to. Heck, gender + a few traits can make a huge difference.

 

[wulf3n]

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4. ...

What traits are inherently female? Not being referred to in masculine gender terms, I'd guess.
It's like a guy being called "Miss" and "ma'am" often despite looking like Terry Crews.

Haha, I can honestly say I was not expecting that answer

What must a woman say/think/feel to be a woman? There's no solid answer as this varies from person to person.

That's what I was alluding to.

It feels as though developers/publishers are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation sometimes.

Give a female character traits considered masculine by current social norms and get accused of making a man in a woman's body.

Give a female character traits considered feminine by current social norms and get accused of reinforcing negative stereotypes.

I'm not saying everyone does this, or even that it's the same people arguing both sides.

 

[Uhura]

snip

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with bullying, no one should go through that. I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion we are having now though. Wether you personally think she is having it easy or not has no bearing on wether she should address the harassment or not.

I didn't address your example because I haven't at any point suggested that people sending death threats should be automatically jailed. Where I live, people usually pay fines for death threats (unless the threat is deemed serious enough to warrant jail time). Otherwise, I think online communities should have strict rules against online harassment (meaning that I'm perfectly fine if Twitter/Facebook/The Escapist/XBL etc. permanently bans users who harass other users and send them death threats).

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Gender matters for representation, immersion, and basically not having to play the opposite gender more than your own.

If that's what you're looking for then that's your opinion. Far be it for me to stop you. I'm just not interested in the fictional rights of fictional characters in the newest Saints Row game.

The qualifier is a game where you play as a woman, and the main villain is a woman in the same game. One or the other doesn't cut it as far as the point of the list goes.

And I'm not here to give a huge list of games. I pointed out that there are quite a few. That doesn't say anything about gender representation in games. You're really making some far reaching assumptions on video games that aren't really there.

I kinda see games as movies in the sense that I take up the role of the main protagonist. Being a female, being offered almost entirely male only roles -sucks-.

Then you haven't played enough games because there's plenty with female representation. Maybe step back and keep away from the Kotaku journalism for a while? Because right now, you haven't even talked about the genres you like, the characters you want, or anything, you're just complaining that there aren't enough women in games which is a VERY tired argument right now.

I'm not saying I can't play the role of a guy, but after gaming all of my life, I want the role of my own gender more often. I don't understand why it's such a terrible thing to want.

Because either you're trying to say that developers should give you more female characters when you don't even know about the ones that exist in the first place, or you want to ignore games like Skyrim, Saints Row, or Dragon Age which allow you the choice to be a different gender and do things to cater to your choice. And why should anyone cater to people that don't want to understand story, gameplay, or anything else if the only thing that matters to them is "representation, immersion, and not being a dude?" That just makes no sense.

There's a -lot- of story driven games out there that rely on the gender of the main protagonist, like Catherine. Pretty much every last game that has a love interest in it for one.

... So Dragon Age relies on you to be a female to sleep with Meredith...

...

Good to know...

I never said I'm doing anything more than offering my opinion in my arguments for getting more female representation.
I can't say I ever picked up the mantle of fighting for the rights of fictional women.

Hey, you offered a brief list of games to a person that mentioned they're rare. You kinda were here to make a list. I just asked if you had a longer one, partly in jest.

It DOES say something about women's representation in games because their representation is immensely underwhelming in terms of number, variety, and realism.

Seriously, there's not a lot of games where you play as women from year to year. You wanna throw up some list of indies, and old games? What if I have all I can get? What about the future, then? Or even the present? It's not reasonable to ask people to have to look into the past, sometimes really far back, to get their fix.

Well, if you wanted me to elaborate on what I want, you could have just asked, you know. But you're not here to make a list?
Lets be clear here. If you're not here to make a long list, I'd like to know before I waste my time typing, for you, a lot of more specefic stuff I want.

You list Saints Row, Bioware Games, and Bethesda games, most of which I have. Believe me, they don't really do a whole lot to make a gal feel like a gal. Even in Bioware games, the game doesn't really change based on your gender because the scripts between guys, and gals are nearly identical outside of romances. It's a bit of a cop-out to rely on them vs the leagues more games that revolve around guys specefically.
Yeah, gender select games are kinda not counting here. Lets take gender select games off the table for the sake of finding games where female is the only gender you can play as.

What do you mean it doesn't make any sense? I don't want to play as a guy, and I don't want to have to rely on gender select games to accomplish this.
How is that not sensible?

 

[Something Amyss]

She makes low-quality content after raising an obscene amount of money. That's most people's problem with her. Stop pretending it isn't.

Then they should stop giving other reasons. And that doesn't explain the wave of hate before she ever even made a video or finished her kickstarter.

Sorry, friend. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

What do you mean it doesn't make any sense? I don't want to play as a guy, and I don't want to have to rely on gender select games to accomplish this.
How is that not sensible?

Because then boys might be occasionally forced to play as girls. Do you have any idea how horrible that would be?

*awkward silence*

 

[Something Amyss]

Everybody who posts on 4chan receives harassment, was her particular harassment worse than normal? We don't know, she simply said she was harassed and received threats, I don't remember her providing sufficient examples to match her outrage.

4Chan routinely posts the personal information of its users in attempts to harass and attack users?

Christ, that place really is a shithole.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'm pretty sure men have been villains far more than women, but they're the "default" so they tend no to get mentioned as much.

You know what's really rare? Female hero and female villain.

You mean like Portal?

He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?

I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.

Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways? Nearly all characters in games I can think of are little more then sacks of flour with the gender attributed tacked on to it rather then a character where gender matters. I think Jade from Beyond good and evil may have had a character that acknowledges gender (seen through how the environment acted upon her in relation to her gender and how she responded to that) though that is a bit fuzzy as I not played that one in a while. I think Marcus Phoenix from Gears has a bit of character relating to gender due to backstory about how man are rafted into the fight in that world as well, which would then influence character,(what little he had) though never played much of those games. Beyond that off the top of my head, gender matters precious little in relation to character, and as such it is more often based in marketing/player expectation, controlling media reaction/outrage or fitting with ascetic.

I hope you're not saying
"Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways?"
Like it's a good thing?

Gender matters to the story. Assassin's Creed, the Witcher, Red Dead redemption, GTA, and a lot of story driven games demand the gender of the protagonist envisioned for the story be that gender.
If gender could be switched, we'd get something like Way of the Samurai 1, 2, 3, & 4 where a game with a script that is intended for a male protagonist can be played through as a woman. That means you can be a lesbian, sorta as you're more or less a guy trapped in a woman's body.

There's simply no inability to write for women, though. The games written for women are precious few.

Even in cases where gender doesn't matter, it breaks immersion for some people, like myself, to always know you're playing as the opposite gender. Something as simple as gender can add something desireable to a game.

Not a good thing per-say, but a noteworthy one, especially when the discussion has shifted to a female skinned silent flour sack and a female(?) AI with at least a complex personality if not a well fleshed character. Though, not necessarily a bad thing either, as gender not having a point in a game doesn't make it good or bad for that. Now gender being meaningless in a character and story driven game, well, that could be bad for laziness.

I was also thinking of games like any mario, Zelda, metroid, half-life, (any silent protagonist character really) nearly any make your own character game, borderlands, top-down diablo clones, side scrolling beat-em-ups, first person shooters, nearly any fighting game... Hell, most games I can think of off the top of my head and with boxes in the immediate area of my computer desk. Gender just has no impact there.
When you get to games with stories that drive the plot, this does become less, as your examples suggest (not played any but GTA on your list, though gender does play a factor there, true, and no reason to doubt the others). The deeper the plot, the more fleshed out the characters are, the more likely gender actually has some impact on the characters themselves, though it seems that it is also more likely to find better characters all around.

I can sort of understand frustration for not having a player character avatar that represents you in games, though I never had issues with the character I was playing being a girl. I was usually more annoyed if I didn't like the character ascetic then the gender they were. Still, I think there is something to game type and story importance in relation to gender importance and likelihood of seeing female protagonists. Too tired to pick out exactly what I latched onto about it, but it was something about how most characters in gaming are icons or archtypes rather then characters and how the lack character helps allow and encourage less female characters as protagonists or whatever due to factors more related to company and sales and demographic appeal and what not then developer intent or even audience outright demand.

sorry, seems a bit more of a tangent there then I initially though now that I reread it all.

Gender always has some sort of impact when someone's been deprived of the option of playing your own for a long time. I mean it's a small, nice thing at the very least in te most simple games. It doesn't matter if the game's story is as complex as Super Mario Bros, or as complex as Disgaea, or God of War, or the story modes of a lot of modern shooters which still tells a tale.

Even some understanding is better than none, and I appreciate the understanding you have greatly. Empathy seems hard to get in discussions like this from some.
Occassionally playing the other gender can be a good thing, especially in a story driven game. Having to do so nearly all the time can get to a person though.

I dunno, as far as game worlds go, I feel like they're all fictional. It's not like every last game sticks purely to reality. I feel like people can suspend disbelief a little here and there as to what one gender or the other can do.

Ah, the whole appealing to demographics issue. Well, the gaming industry's starting to become a failing industry. Too big to fall, completely, but they're so blinded by chasing the dudebro dempgraphic that they aren't necessarily trying to get money from a wider dempgraphic.

Tangents are fine. I go off on my own a lot, so I can't really get upset at someone for going off on their own. lol

 

[Gindil]

Hey, you offered a brief list of games to a person that mentioned they're rare. You kinda were here to make a list. I just asked if you had a longer one, partly in jest.

http://www.giantbomb.com/female-protagonists/3015-2287/

http://www.giantbomb.com/female-antagonists/3015-2053/characters/

It DOES say something about women's representation in games because their representation is immensely underwhelming in terms of number, variety, and realism.

So you've done an analysis of all games from 1983 - 2013 and tabulated the various characters from male to female, crossed out the animals, and found out the ratio?

I mean, if you're going to be scientific about this, what you're stating is entirely subjective and the work to make it objective would be something far more than most people are willing to do. You really can't say that female representation of games is underwhelming when females have been in gaming since its inception from creation of games like Centipede to creating new characters like Bayonetta from Mari Shimazaki.

Seriously, there's not a lot of games where you play as women from year to year. You wanna throw up some list of indies, and old games? What if I have all I can get? What about the future, then? Or even the present? It's not reasonable to ask people to have to look into the past, sometimes really far back, to get their fix.

http://victorsopinion.blogspot.com/p/female-centric-games.html

You list Saints Row, Bioware Games, and Bethesda games, most of which I have. Believe me, they don't really do a whole lot to make a gal feel like a gal. Even in Bioware games, the game doesn't really change based on your gender because the scripts between guys, and gals are nearly identical outside of romances. It's a bit of a cop-out to rely on them vs the leagues more games that revolve around guys specefically.

http://www.hanakogames.com/

http://www.englishotomegames.net/

http://princessmaker.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Maker_Wiki

And before you get into the whole "But that's sexist" thing, I played Princess Maker 2 when I was younger and enjoyed the game. I actually liked the concept of creating a capable woman who could be a scholar, magician, or a hard worker. And now, there's more games from women by women:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/251990

So either you haven't seen the games that women make or you're just wanting to focus on the AAA industry. Suits me fine, but not every person who enjoys video games likes AAA titles. Gimme Steam and some cheap games like Bleed with women protagonists any day.

What do you mean it doesn't make any sense? I don't want to play as a guy, and I don't want to have to rely on gender select games to accomplish this.
How is that not sensible?

It comes off as sexist. You're telling me you don't know of any games that women like or even the genres that are pretty gender neutral? Interesting...

That means RPGs like Valkyria Chronicles which deal with racism btw, Valkyrie Profile, and games like La Pucelle Tactics along with games like the DDR games or even the music genre of games that have appeal to anyone are ignored for a very selective list. It's almost as bad as Jim Sterling's Bechdel Test for games. Most of them fall flat. Next thing you know, you're going to tell me that you don't want an attractive female to play as.

 

[generals3]

It DOES say something about women's representation in games because their representation is immensely underwhelming in terms of number, variety, and realism.

Wouldn't you agree that in terms of realism and variety this is something which pretty much all characters suffer from? It's not like male characters are more realistic or have much more variety (maybe a little simply due to them being more numerous)

Yeah, gender select games are kinda not counting here. Lets take gender select games off the table for the sake of finding games where female is the only gender you can play as.

Why wouldn't they count, if it is gender that matters they definitely count. What you're doing is purposely restricting your sample and thus creating a huge bias in order to be able to reinforce your point. That is actually a big no-no.

 

[wulf3n]

Because then boys might be occasionally forced to play as girls. Do you have any idea how horrible that would be?

*awkward silence*

Nailed it. Guys are terrified of playing girls that's why games like Pefect Dark sold 2.5 million [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Dark] units 13 years ago, Metroid Prime was the second best selling game of it's release month [http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_Prime] and >50% [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.80156-Poll-Guys-playing-girl-characters?view_results=1] people here on the escapist don't really care what gender they play.

 

[Quadocky]

I'm sorry but as a person who has been physically bullied and harassed for a timespan of oh about 15 years growing up and even today for the jobs I've had with the exception of one I've been socially ostracized and I would trade in a HEARTBEAT for the type of online harassment and abuse that she has received.

While that is tragic, you seem to be missing the bigger issue in regards to harassment online. What Anita has experienced is the norm for many women online, in Anita's case however it was just much more visible and relevant.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

In way of the samurai, you are called "he" "him" and generally referred to as a man no matter what. There's no ambiguous language like in Saints Row 2,3, and 4. ...

What traits are inherently female? Not being referred to in masculine gender terms, I'd guess.
It's like a guy being called "Miss" and "ma'am" often despite looking like Terry Crews.

Haha, I can honestly say I was not expecting that answer

What must a woman say/think/feel to be a woman? There's no solid answer as this varies from person to person.

That's what I was alluding to.

It feels as though developers/publishers are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation sometimes.

Give a female character traits considered masculine by current social norms and get accused of making a man in a woman's body.

Give a female character traits considered feminine by current social norms and get accused of reinforcing negative stereotypes.

I'm not saying everyone does this, or even that it's the same people arguing both sides.

I understand they can be damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The thing, IMO, that makes it so easy to damn them, is, well, the lack of stuff to compare them to, and that there's often extremes as between giving masculine, or feminine traits.

It's impossible to please everyone, compounding matters. That's what a lot of personalities, appearances, and game styles can fix. If a customer doesn't like an masculine female, hopefully there's a feminine one to play as. If both are a bit too extreme one way or the other for the customer, then hopefully there'll be a third option. The more options, and the more variety the easier it is to have pleased someone, and a pleased person generally doesn't damn people.

 

[JSkunk22]

People are still blaming her for her Kickstarter getting more donations than she was asking for. How is this her fault again?

 

[wulf3n]

I understand they can be damned if they do, and damned if they don't. The thing, IMO, that makes it so easy to damn them, is, well, the lack of stuff to compare them to, and that there's often extremes as between giving masculine, or feminine traits.

It's impossible to please everyone, compounding matters. That's what a lot of personalities, appearances, and game styles can fix. If a customer doesn't like an masculine female, hopefully there's a feminine one to play as. If both are a bit too extreme one way or the other for the customer, then hopefully there'll be a third option. The more options, and the more variety the easier it is to have pleased someone, and a pleased person generally doesn't damn people.

I agree completely.

The problem is developers/publishers don't exist as a single hive mind working to one end. A developer cannot control anything outside of their own game but are often criticised as if it's their fault the character they created didn't cater for everyone and that there's no alternative.

I'm not saying it's right, just that I completely understand why so many developers don't want to even try to approach female characters.

And we haven't even gotten to the death of authorial intent.