The New York Times Criticizes The Last of Us for Having a Male Protagonist

[Rebel_Raven]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

 

[Smeatza]

Great article btw, SHOWS A HATRED OF MEN while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

And this is one of the reasons people don't like feminists, in a nutshell.
You really thought the second half of his sentence was the part there was a problem with? Hating men because of their gender is fine in your books is it? Or is so unimportant that it's not worth even noticing?
What about the hypocrisy of complaining about sexism while simultaneously hating a group of people because of their gender?
No? no?
I should add that this kind of behavior isn't exclusive to feminists, you'll find it in any political group with a victim mindset.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The reviewer's kind of stretching it a bit, isn't he/she?

 

[generals3]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

She didn't even ever say that ironically. All she said was:

1) Certain tropes are overused
2) Said tropes are borderline misogynistic
3) Said overuse of said tropes makes society more anti-women

That's all she has done in 50 minutes. And in the previous video she made about videogames she said there is too much violence, dicks and men with tits in videogames in her description.

As you can notice she never pinpoints where there is sexism. She just calls certain tropes misogynistic (which ironically is the worst possible sexism accusations she could have done because it's pure BS, the tropes themselves are only misogynistic if you look too much into them and WANT them to be misogynistic) and than goes full Jack Thompson and pretends it negatively affects society.

 

[Schadrach]

Sadly, The Last of Us would probably never have seen the daylight if it did not have a Male Protagonist.

Bah, I think that's terribly overexaggerated, specifically by a dev (who probably had publisher approval to say it) to generate hype for a game that had unfortunately poor gameplay (I'm only kind of a fan of Remember Me for reasons wholly unrelated to the protagonist -- Dontnod took an amazing idea and an awesome protagonist and didn't live up to the potential; I am disappoint).

And I would argue that TLOU handles female characters absolutely fine, at least from the 90 minutes of the game I saw. Female characters can handle themselves in combat, wear a reasonable amount of clothes, and have more than one dimension of character.

Everything you say here is truth.

Also makes me wonder what they would have written if the Last of Us was composed entirely of female characters:
"The Last of Us de-feminizes women by making the female gender the default male gender; by removing the binary genders it makes all females part of the default male..."

Quit channelling the ability to find patriarchy in a glass of water. =)

Of what I've played of this game, you hardly ever have to protect Ellie except in a few rare occassions. There isn't even a hint of "me tough man, you weak girl" throughout the game at all. For the most part they're just two individuals traveling together, not one being the guardian and the other the damsel.

Joel takes the lead not because he's a guy, but because he's the older and more experienced individual and Ellie's never been "outside" before.

Seriously, a fuss over nothing.

Another statement that is very much the truth. Early in the game he's certainly more than a little protective of her, but it made sense to me from a perspective of his background and what happened to Sarah and Tess. Later on, he's certainly more willing to let her in the thick of things, and she shows herself to be more than capable. There's even the Winter chapter in which she gets captured and Joel ends up going to save her, only to arrive as she's hacking away at her captor (who it is strongly implied was going to rape her) with his own machete.

I think their point is that the other character didn't have to be male, he just sort of was. In so many situations changing the sex of the main protagonist does nothing to change the story, so the fact that so many are still opting for the male for some arbitrary reason is still frustrating.

So, we should take the opposite approach, and make any character for whom there isn't a strong reason to make male female because gender politics bullshit? Or we could just let developers make the characters they want to make. There's room for Joel to be Joel instead of Joan without some compelling reason, just like there's no compelling reason for Nilin to be Nilin and not Nolan and there shouldn't have to be.

So, why shouldn't the game's target audience include women? What is particularly gendered about a post apocalyptic setting?

Here is the thing with marketing, the publishers are generally terrible at it. They enter with the idea of "This is my market" and it hasn't been the market for 10 years. The average gamer's age is about 30, women over the age of 18 represent a greater portion of the gaming market than boys under 17. (31% versus 19%)

Games are still being mainly marketed to boys under 17. That is who is ending up in the focus groups.

The ESA numbers you are quoting are essentially meaningless for a simple reason -- gaming is a ridiculously broad market, made up of a huge array of niche markets with wildly different demographic breakdowns. The ESA numbers cram them all together without any kind of breakdown, which creates misleading perspectives.

Facebook games are typically targeted at older women, for example. Why do you think that is? Is it a *problem* that we aren't targeting Facebook games (or, say, romance novels for another example) at teenaged boys?

About 50% of gamers (PROBABLY GROSSLY INACCURATE MEASUREMENT HERE) see a 99%/1% split, and conclude that since there are still 2 sides, they must be equal. Because you know, one Alyx Vance=100 games where females are required to wear dental floss while the male character shows how manly he is.

It's halfway through 2013, and we have a Nilin. So, I'd like you to point out "100 games where females are required to wear dental floss while the male character shows how manly he is" from this year (to be fair, you can use stuff slated to come out this year too). How about 50? 25? How low does the number have to get before you can answer it?

If the 14 year old girl was a 14 year old boy, would it be alright if he was playable and fighting? Would you expect a 14 year old boy to help in fighting, while expecting the girl not too?

After the first part of the game (specifically just a short while after she saves his ass in Pittsburgh, I think?) he realizes that she's actually at least a little capable and stops trying to keep her out of combat. She's only playable for the most of Winter chapter and the epilogue, but she's fighting from more or less the point Joel hands her a rifle forward. Tess also helps fight during the time she's travelling with you.

I think the Last of Us is a step in the right direction. At no point in the game does it really feel like Ellie needs Joel (except for a few, physically demanding tasks that would have been tough for a 14 yr old of any gender to accomplish, never mind Ellie). Instead, it often feels as though Joel is in need of Ellie. Ellie is the stronger of the two, she isn't the damsel in distress, Joel is the wayward knight who lost his way, etc. etc. etc. For what the Last of Us is, it is near revolutionary to the gaming industry.

There are certainly points where Ellie needs Joel, but overall I agree with this, especially as the game gets further on and Ellie shows just how capable she really is. Ellie certainly needs Joel to assist her sometimes, but ultimately Joel needs Ellie more, especially when you consider the dialog in the ending. When it comes right down to it, Ellie is the main reason Joel doesn't end up like Frank or Henry.

Maybe there will be a sequel starring Ellie?

If they want to make a direct sequel, I hope that's what they do. Roll the clock forward another decade or so, kill off Joel early in the story, and go from there. Given the ending to TLOU, a sequel starring Ellie might literally be built around

Spoiler

Ellie knowing that Joel was lying to her at the end (that expression on her face at the end, I mean come on), and killing him off in a sequel might spur her to try to make it happen again.

Oh come one. Are they going to complain about every game with a male protagonist now?

Probably.

The females in The Last Of Us aren't that bad from my point of view. From what I've seen so far, Tess is pretty bad-ass. If anything she's more ballsy than Joel.

She certainly comes off that way. Ellie isn't too bad either. Neither is Marlene.

You haven't played the game... because the story didn't grab you...? Wut? Did you watch a Let's Play or something? I assume you didn't otherwise you'd know you get to play as Ellie in one chapter. And not just a few minutes, but for a good long while.

Yeah, you play about 3/4 of Winter as Ellie. Her sneak-attack isn't as good as Joel's against humans (she's a petite 14-year old, she can't quite subdue large men as quietly as he can), but her knife counts as an unbreakable shiv (yes, that means sneak-attacking clickers)

This is without a doubt one of if not the most mature game this generation. And if you simply ignore it because you play as a dude, you're the same as all those guys that don't wanna play as a chick cuz cooties.

Worse, even. At least the guys to refuse to play female characters don't pretend that doing so is based on some kind of gender equality argument.

I didn't play the game, but I've seen trailers showing the male protagonist and the 14-year old girl brutally and ruthlessly killing many uninfected human enemies. The thing is: those enemies appeared to be all male.

So, are there also female survivors to be shot in the head with a shotgun at close range when they say "please, no" (or something, this was in the first gameplay trailer), strangle to death from behind, set on fire with a molotov, etcetera, and if so, how many of the enemies are women as opposed to men?

And speaking of 14-year-olds, are there are any children to fight? You know, the sort of survivor children like in Lord of the Flies, or just Children of the Corn (the original). Or are there even (m)any children zombies?

Some of the infected are women, but all regular human enemies are male. *spoiler* Only one child (who was just starting to become infected) and one woman get shot on camera in the entire game (maybe two women, I didn't stop to see what happened to Tess exactly). *spoiler*

Would you be okay with setting enemy women on fire and strangling them, too? And if not, why?

I could go either way, but a lot of the folks who complain about this stuff would have a serious problem with it. Same reason Skyrim has female bandits in randomly rolled groups of bandits, but they are much less than half the bandit population.

Apparently the male protagonist of Far Cry 3 is raped (I didn't play it), which did not generate controversy. Do you think it would, if a female was raped?

In the case of Far Cry 3, the main character is drugged by a woman, during which there's a trippy boss fight with an ink demon, and when he snaps out of the hallucinations she's riding him. Also, his male friend was bought as a sex slave by another man on the island. No controversy at all, for some reason.

Then again, there's also implied attempted rape of Ellie in TLOU, and it hasn't gained controversy either, which makes me think that the people who start controversies about these games aren't the same people who actually *play* games.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

I would take it more as "if you want to demand a character have a gender swap, then you should be able to come up with a reason it would improve things, aside from satisfying certain flavors of gender ideologoue." I suspect you'd be staunchly against "let's gender swap Nilin" because Nilin is female, while I'd be against it because I don't see how it would add anything to that game.

For the rest, maybe innovate combat a bit by not having the protagonist be the center of attention in a fight, instead you flank, stealth kill, attack from afar, and generally be the damage dealer while Joel tanks, and draws attention.
Heck, if you have to hide, that'd require a game with -good- stealth mechanics. Kinda rare games do stealth decently, isn't it?

When the AI wants to behave, you can pull of some pretty impressive tricks with it, including cases where I and a partner snuck up to a pair of guards and stealth killed them both at the same time, preventing one from alerting on the death of the other. Or luring a guard into a position where Ellie could get a better shot (in a position where either Ellie had a clear shot or I did, depending on which side of a piece of cover he wanted to be on).

It's also worth noting that if anyone "tanks" in TLOU, you're doing it wrong. Combat is fairly brutal, both aesthetically and in terms of ability to absorb damage. Infected more advanced than runners kill in a single melee hit. Humans don't need that many hits either. Most gunfights are resolved in just a couple of actual hits (and good thing to, because you probably only have a couple of dozen bullets between all your guns if you've been conserving ammo). There are parts where you are better off to sneak than to fight (clickers are blind, so long as you can either avoid or quietly deal with any runners in the area you can basically ignore most clickers, so long as you nseak slowly, since they can hear you sneaking at full speed).

I think Remember Me was an opportunity but I'm not sure how it was executed because I haven't played it yet.

The gameplay was passable at best (and I'm being generous), everything about it outside of the actual gameplay was excellent though.

I think that this battle really lies with the indie developers who don't have focus groups and draconian publishers perverting their artistic visions. When the indies make some successful games with female protaganists that garner some attention, maybe big publisher will change their tunes. Until then, we can only shake our heads in disappointment.

No one is stopping them, yet you don't see a great flood of female protagonists (except maybe from that female protagonist indie game jam thing that's coming up).

 

[Lilani]

So, we should take the opposite approach, and make any character for whom there isn't a strong reason to make male female because gender politics bullshit? Or we could just let developers make the characters they want to make. There's room for Joel to be Joel instead of Joan without some compelling reason, just like there's no compelling reason for Nilin to be Nilin and not Nolan and there shouldn't have to be.

Um, no. If the gender of the character is inconsequential, then either should be acceptable. But for some reason, males are almost always chosen over females. And considering these very public debacles with Bioshock Infinite, Last of Us, and Remember Me we know exactly why male seems to be the default template for a player character in games: because the bigwigs in these companies are afraid the public can't handle relating to a female. Meaning the devs aren't making the characters they want, unless they make the fight public and have the authority fight tooth and nail and actually have a prayer of winning.

So yes, until this "gender politics bullshit" isn't such a huge deal to game developers, then we're also going to have to also treat it like a big deal.

 

[Kungfusam]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

Not really, but you're free to interpret it as you will

My point was that everyone on both sides are sexist as hell, feminists openly define everyone by gender. The idea that a game having a male character is an act of sexism , is itself sexist

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Great article btw, SHOWS A HATRED OF MEN while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

And this is one of the reasons people don't like feminists, in a nutshell.
You really thought the second half of his sentence was the part there was a problem with? Hating men because of their gender is fine in your books is it? Or is so unimportant that it's not worth even noticing?
What about the hypocrisy of complaining about sexism while simultaneously hating a group of people because of their gender?
No? no?
I should add that this kind of behavior isn't exclusive to feminists, you'll find it in any political group with a victim mindset.

Misogyny, and Misandry is wrong. So is, likely, the Misanthropy I like to think I deal with is, too, but we all hate some groups of people to the point that it blinds us to any good they aim to do.

Well, considering this:

Maybe because, just maybe, she has -some- validity in her arguments? Despite her personal, presentational flaws she actually has a point?
That the videogame industry isn't some magical place of equality? That Women do tend to get the shaft more often than not as far as videogames go? That it's not all bullshit despite it's flawed presentation, and presenter?

She's not influencing me, that's for sure. She's definitely not telling me anything I don't already know as far as her points go... well, except Dinosaur Planet getting overhauled into Star Fox Adventures, and Krystal getting ... well, shafted really hard to put it lightly. I didn't know about that one. Did I ever mention how much I hate it when a female protagonist ends up being turned into a guy? And Sarkeesian's example isn't the only example of that sort of drek?

Her movement isn't getting fought so hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.
Further, fighting her is just as likely to make her more powerful. It's free press to fight Sarkeesian.
If you don't like her, don't watch her vids.
A bit of friendly advice. Don't assume every person who has it in their heads that the game industry isn't sexism free is there because of Sarkeesian, nevermind a feminist.

You can hate her all you want, but I think you're going overboard in expressing it, personally.

was my the rest of my post, it's not a huge jump to reach the conclusion.

He says Anita's "wrong."

I juuust wanted to be sure where he stood so I didn't accuse him of anything wrongfully. Never can tell when someone who thinks the gaming industry is fine as is is around.

I didn't touch the first part because I wasn't disagreeing with him. And as I said before, misandry is wrong. Sexism is wrong.

Frankly I liked his own defense better.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

Not really, but you're free to interpret it as you will

My point was that everyone on both sides are sexist as hell, feminists openly define everyone by gender. The idea that a game having a male character is an act of sexism , is itself sexist

I'd like to think not all feminists are terrible terrible people, and vice versa.

I just asked so I didn't get my interpretation wrong.

And on the flip side of what you brought up, the game industry relegating women to the back of the box, making the female character a male, denying female characters outright, fighting to lower their agency in a game, emphasising the female gender as the one getting victimized in large quantities, not taking the time to ask women their opinions in a focus group, blaming female protagonists for why a game fails when it could be many other reasons, and so forth is pretty sexist, too.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

She didn't even ever say that ironically. All she said was:

1) Certain tropes are overused
2) Said tropes are borderline misogynistic
3) Said overuse of said tropes makes society more anti-women

That's all she has done in 50 minutes. And in the previous video she made about videogames she said there is too much violence, dicks and men with tits in videogames in her description.

As you can notice she never pinpoints where there is sexism. She just calls certain tropes misogynistic (which ironically is the worst possible sexism accusations she could have done because it's pure BS, the tropes themselves are only misogynistic if you look too much into them and WANT them to be misogynistic) and than goes full Jack Thompson and pretends it negatively affects society.

She has pointeed out the lack of female protagonists, and the sexism in the industry in general.

Sure, it's not the focus of her video, but she had a very narrow topic that evidently took that long to talk about.

You can't really pinpoint the sexism in the industry because it's pretty much everywhere, yet, thankfully, not all encompassing.
The gamers that think the industry is fine as it is, in that it excludes women as protagonists, nevermind all the harassment that's gender specefic that suddenly appears when dealing with women.
The Focus testers that think it's fine to exclude a woman's opinion.
The developers that exclude women, and make sexist jokes at women's expenses, and make women shallow sex objects, and cast them continually as the role of the victims in the plot.
The producers that actively want that sort of thing said above, and fight anyone trying to make a game that doesn't want that.

Just skimming the surface, there.
Not saying the gaming industry is all bad here, but there's a lot of evident tarnish, and too few bright spots.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Apparently the male protagonist of Far Cry 3 is raped (I didn't play it), which did not generate controversy. Do you think it would, if a female was raped?

In the case of Far Cry 3, the main character is drugged by a woman, during which there's a trippy boss fight with an ink demon, and when he snaps out of the hallucinations she's riding him. Also, his male friend was bought as a sex slave by another man on the island. No controversy at all, for some reason.

Then again, there's also implied attempted rape of Ellie in TLOU, and it hasn't gained controversy either, which makes me think that the people who start controversies about these games aren't the same people who actually *play* games.

Not to spoiler (but I am, there's spoiler code), or horn in, but, as it's relevant to that scene:

Spoiler

he also choses the woman that drugs him willingly by greusomely killing, and betraying another woman. I think he, the protagonist, had some idea of what he was getting in to at the time since it seems to be the end of the game, or close to it. It's also worth noting that it's a binary option. You end up with one woman, or the other.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

I would take it more as "if you want to demand a character have a gender swap, then you should be able to come up with a reason it would improve things, aside from satisfying certain flavors of gender ideologoue." I suspect you'd be staunchly against "let's gender swap Nilin" because Nilin is female, while I'd be against it because I don't see how it would add anything to that game.

You're pretty right, but I'd be against nilin being gender swapped because she's female (And I haven't seen this happen to guys which is pretty unfair), -and- because it'd very likely be meaningless.

I'd still be against a guy suddenly being swapped to a woman in the process, too. I'm not a fan of the vision of the designer being altered by outside forces, and, it'd be sexist, too.

As I said before, the gender swap mid deevelopment grinds my gears because it's seemingly aimed specefically at women, and I wish I could find that article where a person working at a game developer said that suggestions of female character tend to have to be justified where as male characters need no justification.

For the rest, maybe innovate combat a bit by not having the protagonist be the center of attention in a fight, instead you flank, stealth kill, attack from afar, and generally be the damage dealer while Joel tanks, and draws attention.
Heck, if you have to hide, that'd require a game with -good- stealth mechanics. Kinda rare games do stealth decently, isn't it?

When the AI wants to behave, you can pull of some pretty impressive tricks with it, including cases where I and a partner snuck up to a pair of guards and stealth killed them both at the same time, preventing one from alerting on the death of the other. Or luring a guard into a position where Ellie could get a better shot (in a position where either Ellie had a clear shot or I did, depending on which side of a piece of cover he wanted to be on).

It's also worth noting that if anyone "tanks" in TLOU, you're doing it wrong. Combat is fairly brutal, both aesthetically and in terms of ability to absorb damage. Infected more advanced than runners kill in a single melee hit. Humans don't need that many hits either. Most gunfights are resolved in just a couple of actual hits (and good thing to, because you probably only have a couple of dozen bullets between all your guns if you've been conserving ammo). There are parts where you are better off to sneak than to fight (clickers are blind, so long as you can either avoid or quietly deal with any runners in the area you can basically ignore most clickers, so long as you nseak slowly, since they can hear you sneaking at full speed).

Well, by "tank" I meant hold agro in general, not necessarily take damage. I'm not sure if there's a monicker for people who hold agro and dodge/block everything, negating damage as much as possible.

It's true that good AI is possible in a game. I'm just saying it's a lot of work to impliment, and it would likely require complex code, and with complexity you get more things that can go wrong.

 

[Schadrach]

Apparently the male protagonist of Far Cry 3 is raped (I didn't play it), which did not generate controversy. Do you think it would, if a female was raped?

In the case of Far Cry 3, the main character is drugged by a woman, during which there's a trippy boss fight with an ink demon, and when he snaps out of the hallucinations she's riding him. Also, his male friend was bought as a sex slave by another man on the island. No controversy at all, for some reason.

Then again, there's also implied attempted rape of Ellie in TLOU, and it hasn't gained controversy either, which makes me think that the people who start controversies about these games aren't the same people who actually *play* games.

Not to spoiler (but I am, there's spoiler code), or horn in, but, as it's relevant to that scene:

Spoiler

he also choses the woman that drugs him willingly by greusomely killing, and betraying another woman. I think he, the protagonist, had some idea of what he was getting in to at the time since it seems to be the end of the game, or close to it. It's also worth noting that it's a binary option. You end up with one woman, or the other.

[/quote]

You're thinking the final endgame choice. The scene I am referring to is much, much earlier in the game. Mission is titled "New Rite of Passage", Citra gives you a bottle claiming it is "poison to the weak", and when you drink it you hallucinate and have to fight this thing:

When you beat it, she's riding you.

 

[generals3]

She has pointeed out the lack of female protagonists, and the sexism in the industry in general.

In order to be able to point out a lack you need to point out a need and evidence said need is not met. She didn't do any of that actually. She merely pointed out she felt there are too few, which is something very different.

And I think we must have seen different videos because she never showed any evidence nor made the claim herself that there is sexism in the industry in general.

You can't really pinpoint the sexism in the industry because it's pretty much everywhere, yet, thankfully, not all encompassing.

What do you mean with "everywhere"? Vertically, horizontally or both?

The gamers that think the industry is fine as it is, in that it excludes women as protagonists, nevermind all the harassment that's gender specefic that suddenly appears when dealing with women.

But why should someone feel compelled to want more female protagonists? Heck you don't fell compelled to want more male protagonists either. If i think a male protagonist > female protagonist i will applaud their exclusion. Just like i'd applaud the exclusion of other elements I don't like. It's normal, i'm a consumer and care about my needs. Expecting gamers to care about your needs is naïve.
And I think pretending the harassment is gender specific is quite an overstatement. Go tell people you're a muslim, black or gay on online games. You'll probably get the exact same treatment. Some assholes will just use anything they can to piss people off. And I don't think anyone says it's "fine". It's just you're trying to make it more of a gender issue it actually is. It's mainly about general asshatery which results in any difference being used against you, which includes, but is not limited to, gender.

The Focus testers that think it's fine to exclude a woman's opinion.

Are we going to complain about good marketing now? Maybe you'd include 10y old boys in a focus group for lipstick but I wouldn't.

The developers that exclude women, and make sexist jokes at women's expenses, and make women shallow sex objects, and cast them continually as the role of the victims in the plot.

Exclude which women? If we're talking about pixels than who gives a fuck? Have we truly become so bored we erected "pixels rights" movements? And sexist jokes? Is that really one of your big issues? I like jokes, you can make jokes about men too if you want. And tell me how devs make women shallow sex objects, I think you're mistaking devs for pimps.

The producers that actively want that sort of thing said above, and fight anyone trying to make a game that doesn't want that.

What's bad about caring about money? I think we've been over this in the past. What you hate is capitalism. They think male protagonists and sex sell, so that's what they put on the market.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Then again, there's also implied attempted rape of Ellie in TLOU, and it hasn't gained controversy either, which makes me think that the people who start controversies about these games aren't the same people who actually *play* games.

...What? What implied attempted rape of Ellie? I'm pretty sure that never happened. yells that if Ellie is allowed to be free, she'll just be raped and murdered, but that's as far as any rape implications go.

Well, by "tank" I meant hold agro in general, not necessarily take damage. I'm not sure if there's a monicker for people who hold agro and dodge/block everything, negating damage as much as possible.

Blink tank.

 

[Kungfusam]

Her movement isn't getting fought hard by gaming media because, well, her statements have roots in truth, unlike Mr. Thompson.

Its because she is female and gaming "journalist " would rather label all gamers as misogynists than dare tell a woman she is wrong

Great article btw, shows a hatred of men while complaining about sexism, but thats feminism for you

So you're saying she's wrong in pointing out that there is sexism in the videogame industry?

Not really, but you're free to interpret it as you will

My point was that everyone on both sides are sexist as hell, feminists openly define everyone by gender. The idea that a game having a male character is an act of sexism , is itself sexist

I'd like to think not all feminists are terrible terrible people, and vice versa.

I just asked so I didn't get my interpretation wrong.

And on the flip side of what you brought up, the game industry relegating women to the back of the box, making the female character a male, denying female characters outright, fighting to lower their agency in a game, emphasising the female gender as the one getting victimized in large quantities, not taking the time to ask women their opinions in a focus group, blaming female protagonists for why a game fails when it could be many other reasons, and so forth is pretty sexist, too.

Thats a lot of questions for one sentence

It should always be up to the makers of the game who they put in and how they portray them, no ifs, no buts.
Turning a female character into a man because something money yarda is stupid, the blatant pandering some games do is really hurting me interest in games
"denying female characters outright, fighting to lower their agency in a game" can you give some examples, not really sure what you mean
The truth is most of this is down to one of the greatest evils developed countries face, marketing, not sexism exactly but it is everything wrong with humanity call it sexism if you want but it is also responsible for people like Anita Sarkieen

 

[Rebel_Raven]

But just why people were not defending or just sympathising with Jack Thompson when gamers were trolling him and making games about murdering him? Where was Thompson equivalent of this CNN report: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNyxq-gqFNU something like "online trolls attack activist lawyer"? Oh wait, I know: an old guy wouldn't make a good damsel-in-distress...

And why instead of just professionally demolishing her arguments, everyone in gaming media seems to unquestionably siding with her, like with this creepy cult-recruiting like article? http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/05/31/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-why-it-matters ("I?d urge you to tune in to Feminist Frequency and to spread the word. Let?s get more gamers on the same wavelength.")

And again, what do you think would happen to a journalist who dared to attack or make fun of her? Remember how this Destructoid guy was hounded by an online lynch mob and fired from his job for a drunken tweet about "a glorified booth babe"? Do you think it would happen if he had attacked a man instead? Maybe the lack of equality is there alright, but in reverse?

Dinosaur Planet had a male protagonist all along. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKAg_NmTcoc again, it discusses the manipulation.

Where exactly do you see "-some- validity in her arguments" and "a point" in what Anita Sarkeesian alleges? Do you even remember her original troll bait thesis, which she presented as an unqestionable fact? Let me refresh you memory:

"It is no secret that the video game industry boasts some of the most sexually objectified, stereotyped and downright oppressive portrayals of women in any medium."

Do you really feel "downright oppressed" by video games or something?

Or maybe do you subscribe to that "truth":

"The belief that women are somehow a naturally weaker gender is a deeply ingrained, socially constructed myth, which, of course, is completely false."

Or maybe again to games, and now enter a young and improved Jack Thompson with shaved-and-drawn eyebrows and huge hoola-hoop earrings:

"Games don?t exist in a vacuum and therefore can?t be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world. It?s especially troubling in-light of the serious real life epidemic of violence against women facing the female population on this planet. (...) Given the reality of that larger cultural context, it should go without saying that it?s dangerously irresponsible to be creating games in which players are encouraged and even required to perform violence against women in order to save them. (...) Violence against women is a serious global epidemic; therefore, attempts to address the issue in fictional contexts demands a considerable degree of respect, subtlety and nuance. Women shouldn?t be mere disposable objects or symbolic pawns in stories about men and their own struggles with patriarchal expectations and inadequacies."

(I wonder why the violence against women is any problem if the women are really as strong as men, but okay.)

I'd say people aren't threatening Thompson equally because:
1) They'd likely get charges pressed
2) threatening to rape him, or wishing he'd get raped is "gay" and trolls, and haters don't seem to wanna come off that way.

But I'm sure he gets his fair share of hatemail anyhow.

Huh, interesting question, lets see what happens when a guy journalist bashes a guy in game developlment
http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616

As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy.

said he.
That sparked quite the outrage on the internet, too.
The guy kept his job, and said what he said sober. What kind of double standard is that? In all fairness he should've been fired.
at least he had the nerve to apologize, even though the situation escaleted a lot before he did.

So, Dinosaur planet had a Brother AND sister -team- in which the sister was a choice of character from the get go according to the vid you linked me. And yet krystal gets removed from being selectable, gets played only briefly, and is pretty much a DiD. And I'd say the concept art is more modest than what she ended up wearing in starfox adventures.

So, in essense, krystal was still playable, she ended up not playable in the final produce in favor of a male only lead, and ended up a DiD for a considerable length in the game. I'm not really sure if that's any better than what Sarkeesian's spin on it.

So, here you are, conveniently ignoring the fact krystal was playable even though the proof was in your own link, focusing on the male protagonist only as if that's the only thing that matters. I dare say you're doing what you hate Sarkeesian for in misrepresenting your side.

Validity in her arguments? The damsel in distress trope, and the variants are pretty widely used. They certainly were back in the day, too. I don't see her as wrong on that matter.

Lets look at the definition of Oppression.

1.Prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.
2.The state of being subject to such treatment or control.

Well, I certainly don't find it just that female protagonists get targeted by the game industry as not wanted.
My hobby is nearly "play as a guy and don't have much hope of getting to do otherwise." It has been before this year. It probably will be again.

"The belief that women are somehow a naturally weaker gender is a deeply ingrained, socially constructed myth, which, of course, is completely false."

I gotta ask where, exactly, do you stand on this. Sounds to me you subscribe to the opposite in this matter.
It's not like women can't be bodybuilders, or could be physically stronger than you, is it?

Thing is, in videogames, none of that matters at all. It's fictional. Women can be as strong as men. They can be stronger than the average man. Physically, too.

One diffirence between Anita, and thompson is thompson is looking to cencor games. Anita? Not so much. She's just got gripes, and wants people to move past using the tired old tropes.

I don't agree with basically any of this, but I just wonder: who are those "shallow sex objects"? After you said you have no problems with Mai Shiranui and other "fighting f-toys" (TM), now you have my attention.

Men are cast into role of victims much more. I couldn't even count men I alone personally victimised in just the last game I played, which is Vietcong 2 (I know, a pretty ancient game but I played it yesterday because I remembered the first Vietcong to be a great 'realistic' shooter and I somehow missed the follow-up when it was released). Speaking of which - how many women do you think would be interested in playing Vietcong, or what would you add to appeal this game to them (you) more? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K0iJW0XOHA

Speaking of which: http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/05/22/call-of-duty-ghosts-discussing-the-lack-of-women

SERIOUSLY?

Shallow sex object... Krystal? moved from a more sensible long skirr to a mini skirt, and her top had more material in her original form? Also she seems to have gotten a boob job.

The diffirence between Mai Shiranui, and the shallow sex object is that Mai isn't shallow. She has a life, friends, she's after her reluctant boyfriend, she's got a sense of humor, she's not ashamed of who she is, or how she dresses, she's initially playable, and generally not a damsel in distress. She's pretty in control of her life at all times. And And every bit of this was covered in her story mode.

Wow that vietcong game trailer relies a lot on the strippers. Sex sells, sure, but that's a bit overboard. I did say that sex sells -can- go overboard, right? I know I did. I mean how big of a role do the strippers play? At least in Bayonetta, when she strips, there's a point to it, and she's the main character.

Did you get an FMV of every last guy you killed in the game emphasising just how it is they died? Did your buddy ever get held hostage at gunpoint, and shot just to make you suffer? How many of the guys did you make "suffer" not exist with the intent on killing you if you didn't kill them?
Did you get any of POW torture scenes in that game, or were you just there to shoot down every VC member you saw before they killed you?

Listen, I know there's a plethora of unnamed guys that get mowed down in games. I'm not denying that, but it doesn't often get emphasized the way it does for women. Further, a vast majority of those people you kill in that game are trying to kill you. It's either you, or them. No way around it for the most part.

Guys wouldn't be victimized as much as fodder if more women were in their ranks, would they? Which is half the battle. The other half would be seeing women playable.
Sure, maybe not in that game, but in others that aren't historically rooted, why not?... then again there were dark moves in the Vietnam War where soldiers shot up villages, shot women, and generaly weren't perfectly upright people.

Honestly? What'd make that game more interesting for me? I can't say much would. I'm not interested in it to begin with. I don't PC game if I can avoid it.

Your IGN link seems broken. Might just be me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3UkRszhdj8
works, though.
So, videogames are damned either way. If they exclude women, there'll be problems. If they include women, there'll be problems. Sometimes with the same people either way. What's stopping them, again?

Lets not forget good old, GTA, or Saints Row where you shoot women in the face.
Fallout New Vegas really ups the ante. Bloody mess + female raider + lag = woman being skinned, then EXPLODING into meaty, meaty chunks.

"Seriously" what? So some people sit down, and talk civilly as they can. What are they doing with that in videogames? That girl was pretty damn nervous, too. I don't blame her for being nervous. She's in a room full of guys where she's the only woman speaking up for female playable characters, and she's trying to be civil. *looks at this thread* Gee, I wonder why she'd be nervous? The threat of being berated for being a feminist, the threat of being called a sarkeesianite, being hard pressed to get through a conversation without sarkeesian being brought up.

Is it too much to ask that in light of the lawsuit for women to get on the front lines of war, to have a woman on the front line of the war in that game?

Speaking of links, lemme share some with you:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/ or http://www.gameinformer.com/games/god_of_war_ascension/b/ps3/archive/2012/04/30/sony-unveils-god-of-war-ascensions-multiplayer.aspx

I hope you fully read, and listen to more than a few of them.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Apparently the male protagonist of Far Cry 3 is raped (I didn't play it), which did not generate controversy. Do you think it would, if a female was raped?

In the case of Far Cry 3, the main character is drugged by a woman, during which there's a trippy boss fight with an ink demon, and when he snaps out of the hallucinations she's riding him. Also, his male friend was bought as a sex slave by another man on the island. No controversy at all, for some reason.

Then again, there's also implied attempted rape of Ellie in TLOU, and it hasn't gained controversy either, which makes me think that the people who start controversies about these games aren't the same people who actually *play* games.

Not to spoiler (but I am, there's spoiler code), or horn in, but, as it's relevant to that scene:

Spoiler

he also choses the woman that drugs him willingly by greusomely killing, and betraying another woman. I think he, the protagonist, had some idea of what he was getting in to at the time since it seems to be the end of the game, or close to it. It's also worth noting that it's a binary option. You end up with one woman, or the other.

You're thinking the final endgame choice. The scene I am referring to is much, much earlier in the game. Mission is titled "New Rite of Passage", Citra gives you a bottle claiming it is "poison to the weak", and when you drink it you hallucinate and have to fight this thing:

When you beat it, she's riding you.[/quote]
Oooohh... I see. My mistake, then. I didn't realize there'd be 2 scenes where the protagonist has a sex scene, not that it's under the most ideal of situations when he's having intercourse. It's arguable he's even participating in the one you brought up.
Eugh. What a stomache turning notion. X(

 

[Rebel_Raven]

She has pointeed out the lack of female protagonists, and the sexism in the industry in general.

In order to be able to point out a lack you need to point out a need and evidence said need is not met. She didn't do any of that actually. She merely pointed out she felt there are too few, which is something very different.

And I think we must have seen different videos because she never showed any evidence nor made the claim herself that there is sexism in the industry in general.

You can't really pinpoint the sexism in the industry because it's pretty much everywhere, yet, thankfully, not all encompassing.

What do you mean with "everywhere"? Vertically, horizontally or both?

The gamers that think the industry is fine as it is, in that it excludes women as protagonists, nevermind all the harassment that's gender specefic that suddenly appears when dealing with women.

But why should someone feel compelled to want more female protagonists? Heck you don't fell compelled to want more male protagonists either. If i think a male protagonist > female protagonist i will applaud their exclusion. Just like i'd applaud the exclusion of other elements I don't like. It's normal, i'm a consumer and care about my needs. Expecting gamers to care about your needs is naïve.
And I think pretending the harassment is gender specific is quite an overstatement. Go tell people you're a muslim, black or gay on online games. You'll probably get the exact same treatment. Some assholes will just use anything they can to piss people off. And I don't think anyone says it's "fine". It's just you're trying to make it more of a gender issue it actually is. It's mainly about general asshatery which results in any difference being used against you, which includes, but is not limited to, gender.

The Focus testers that think it's fine to exclude a woman's opinion.

Are we going to complain about good marketing now? Maybe you'd include 10y old boys in a focus group for lipstick but I wouldn't.

The developers that exclude women, and make sexist jokes at women's expenses, and make women shallow sex objects, and cast them continually as the role of the victims in the plot.

Exclude which women? If we're talking about pixels than who gives a fuck? Have we truly become so bored we erected "pixels rights" movements? And sexist jokes? Is that really one of your big issues? I like jokes, you can make jokes about men too if you want. And tell me how devs make women shallow sex objects, I think you're mistaking devs for pimps.

The producers that actively want that sort of thing said above, and fight anyone trying to make a game that doesn't want that.

What's bad about caring about money? I think we've been over this in the past. What you hate is capitalism. They think male protagonists and sex sell, so that's what they put on the market.

Huh, and yet here people are claiming that she's caling sexism on the game industry? The overused tropes is a part of it. It repeatedly shines a light on the woman being the victim. It's a part of that whole sexism in the industry problem.

We have been through this before, and it's gotten neither of us anywhere, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to change.
I'ev made it a point to try and avoid getting into this with you. I certainly could have, but I didn't because I know where you stand, and you know where I stand.

On the point of harassment, unless there's a camera, the harasser will never see the ethnicity of the person they're harassing. Voice isn't always telling of ethnicity as there's black people in the UK, france, etc. Do people really say "I'm black!" in their bio? Do harassers even look at a person's bio?
If you don't tell people your religion, you're not going to get harassed about it, are you? Unless you are on video, and have religious symbols, or something.
A lot of that harassment seems like it'd be either a lucky guess, or baseless since it's things that have to be broadcast.

If a woman talks in the game, they're either a pre-pubescent boy, or a woman. Heaven help those that say they're female. They'd get singled out for sexist jokes, and other female specefic harassment.
If you use a female avatar you're bound to pick it up here, and there, too regardless of your gender. It's not worth getting free stuff over, and the people that rely on that give the rest of the women of the gaming community a bad name.

Some examples of women getting gender specefic harassment, and general harassment.
http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/
that's part of that "everywhre" and 've linked you to other instances where focus testers, developers, and producers treated the female gender unfairly.

And I'm well aware that women aren't shining paragons of good in games.

Hell, I'd wager pre-pubescent boys don't get much age-related flak as women do gender specefic flak.

How are devs making women shallow sex objects? By writing shallow women, and presenting them sexily? That'd basically be how.

Lipstick? Again? You've never heard of little boys screwing around with their mother's makeup? Not that women would appreciate their expensive lipstick being used as toys, but why not see what sort of makeup boys would like more?
Little boys aside, some men do use lipstick in costume, in their lifestyle as transvestites, drag queens, and so forth. Oh, and in their work as makeup artists. Heck, watch an episode of faceoff, and see the vast majority of the make-up artists on there be guys.

Pixels that are REPRESENTATIVE OF FEMALES. I "give a fuck." We've been through this before. Must we rehash this?

You know what? If you wanna hide sexism behind the shield of making money, go ahead. Just don't point that at me again. I'm not going ever buy it. I deem that sort of business bad, and it's not going to make me smile if I ever have to do business with people like that, if I ever do business with people like that.