The New York Times Criticizes The Last of Us for Having a Male Protagonist

[80sboy]

Sadly, The Last of Us would probably never have seen the daylight if it did not have a Male Protagonist.

this, also didnt sony PR not want ellie on the cover of the game and ND said they wanted her to stay on the cover

Funny, this reminds me of this box cover:

I guess when there's titties involved, there's exceptions to the rule.

lol

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Stuff like what I mentioned are why topics like these are common, and made a fuss over for better or worse.
It's not entirely the gender of the protagonist that we're making a fuss over, but the practices that keep them from being made, too.

Sorry, I'm still not getting why it's important that the genders of game leads matters. I get why female leads don't appear as much... that wasn't my question. The question was: who cares? Why does it matter? Who does it matter to?

Does the fact that the PC is male make the game better in any way? Is the inverse true? If there were ONLY ever male leads, would that diminish the art of moving boxes around in an artificial environment?

Keep in mind, video game characters not real. None of them are real. They're all completely fictional simulacra of human beings. They can literally have any traits we program them to have without the baggage of biology. Female characters can act, talk, move, look exactly like male characters in video games. For all intents and purposes, character models could be replaced with blank cubes, and it would make no difference. Characters are modeled after humans to give them an understandable shape to move within an environment... and most of the time it's not even necessary for what we have them do. FPS games, for example, could literally just be floating guns with no body, and they would play exactly the same way.

Further, how gender is addressed inside the game world is entirely based on the cultural norms of that game's world and is therefore completely abstract and - more or less - irrelevant to OUR cultural norms. There may be some overlap, but keep in mind that they are FICTIONAL WORLDS - you can't assume the same norms apply.

Finally, playing a male character (if you're female) doesn't lessen you, nor does playing a female character (if you're male). Who the character is should be irrelevant to who you are... unless you're some kind of sexist who just can't put up with playing as a character of the opposite gender. And if that's the case... if you JUST can't get over the gender of the PC... just don't buy the games you don't like! Show the game devs and publishers that you care tremendously about the gender identities of fictional people by not buying their products!

So again: who does this even matter to? If you like games, just play the games! If you don't, don't! What does the "gender" of a 3D model with a texture mapped on top of it matter?

The problem is Developers, and Producers, and the community cares, and enough of it is against women often enough to make the gaming industry news fairly often. You know why it happens. That's assuredly part of why it matters to people.
It's not right why it happens. People see that, and don't like it. It's a matter of right, and wrong for some people.
Frankly, it's hypocracy to expect women to roll over and accept the status quo of female representation in the gaming industry while male representation has far less problems.

Keep in mind that even if they aren't real, they are representations of the gender they appear as. Representation, even virtually, or artistically can be pretty impportant.

You talk about the "art" of it, but the "art" is being oppressed when it comes to female protagonists. The art of the gaming industry is being diminished. It's immature in it's denial of female agency, and it won't grow much at all until it can jump the hurdle. The art is being hurt by the mentality against female protagonists.

I do vote with my wallet. Female protagonist games do get some, but not all priority. Unfortunately they're absurdly rare. Frustratingly rare. It cuts in to the diversity of games they're in.
I care about my gaming hobby, and I have a strong (but not absulute) preferrence in playing as female protagonists. It adds to the fun, and immersion for me. I LIKE my gender being represented as a female in a game as a protagonist.
I'm tired of playing as guys all the time. I've done it for decades, and it's worn thin.
That coupled with the revelations that female representation in the game industry is being fought against really grinds my gears.

Honestly, are you arguing against people wanting more female protagonists?

The whole "why care about gender" argument cuts both ways. If one side gets to care about the gender, so does the other.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I read this article and was just looking for a place to voice my opinion as the NYT did not have a comments section. As I'm all for women having a more prominent roles in gaming, In a game that is supposed to be pseudo realistic I don't think playing as a 14 year old girl in a violent post apocalyptic world would be too convincing.

Why? Do you think if there is ever a post apocalyptic world there will be no young women around?

Hi, my first post here. I basically just made an account for this thread, but maybe I'll stay.

I have just one question to ask regarding the whole "sexist" issue, and the supposed lack of equality through allegedly inadaquate representation of female gender in the game.

I didn't play the game, but I've seen trailers showing the male protagonist and the 14-year old girl brutally and ruthlessly killing many uninfected human enemies. The thing is: those enemies appeared to be all male.

So, are there also female survivors to be shot in the head with a shotgun at close range when they say "please, no" (or something, this was in the first gameplay trailer), strangle to death from behind, set on fire with a molotov, etcetera, and if so, how many of the enemies are women as opposed to men?

And speaking of 14-year-olds, are there are any children to fight? You know, the sort of survivor children like in Lord of the Flies, or just Children of the Corn (the original). Or are there even (m)any children zombies?

Also, I'll just leave it here: http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52975517549/the-new-york-times-referenced-of-my-latest-tropes

There are only male adult non-infected enemies in the game (And no zombie kids). However, Joel does end up shooting one woman in the head in a cutscene. Saying more than that would be a spoiler, though. Actually, just saying that alone is probably a spoiler. Ah well.

It's a point that comes up often, though. Men tend to be objectified to an extreme degree. That is, those faceless generic enemies that you slaughter by the thousands in every game ever are nothing more than obstacles to surmount. They have literally no character and no purpose other than to get shot in the head by the protagonist, whatever their gender is.

If a female enemy appears, they tend to be elite-class and much stronger than their male counterparts. Combine Assassins, FROGs, BnB Squad, etc.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Ellie is such an appealing and unusual video game character ? an Ellen Page look-alike voiced expertly by the 29-year-old Ashley Johnson ? that at one point I found myself rooting for Joel to die so that The Last of Us would become her game

Yeah, I don't think it's Naughty Dog that has a problem here.

Anyway...I don't really think it's a reasonable complaint. For one thing, Ellie is fourteen. The fact that she'll go around shanking dudes while making one liners is a bit pushing it as it is (Although somewhat justified due to the setting).

I think their point is that the other character didn't have to be male, he just sort of was. In so many situations changing the sex of the main protagonist does nothing to change the story, so the fact that so many are still opting for the male for some arbitrary reason is still frustrating. It's like the way we were supposed to have been "over" racism a long time ago but you still rarely see black guys as the leading role for a movie unless they are a big star or the movie in some way is about them being black.

I haven't played this yet so I don't know how it works out, or if this judgement is fair, but in regard to games in general I'm all with NYT. This terminal fear of having a female protagonist "just because" needs to stop, as well as using people who aren't white.

I've argued this before so I'll do it again, albeit briefly. In western narrative history, the most variations of the heroic archetype are defaulted to male. If you want to swap genders, that's fine, but that decision needs to have a reason beyond simple aestetics. Even Bayonetta at least offered some payoff to the female lead beyond the obvious titillation with that entire motherhood plot.

What precisely is gained by making Joel into a female? How much sense does it make to play The Last of Us entirely from Ellie's perspective when that would mean that, for much of the game, she's having to hide while Joel does all of the work?

 

[Kopikatsu]

OK, also: are all the (male) enemies white? Because nowadays even killing black zombies is perceived as "racist" (RE5 "controversy") and I didn't hear anyone complaining about any "racism" in this game yet.

Edit:

For that matter, I can't help bot note that killing unarmed civilians in video games is okay (and often played for a laugh) but only if you kill Americans - try killing any foreigners, like this "scandal" with that scene of the airport massacre stage of Modern Warfare 2 (where it was not even shown as something any fun and the player doesn't even has to kill anyone, and it can be skipped altogether), and it's suddenly not okay, because somehow in video games players are only allowed/supposed to murder Americans. (Compare with a lack of controversy about Prototype games, for example.)

I believe they're all white as far as gameplay goes, but a black zombie is shot in a cutscene. However, that's probably another spoiler. Weird how all the non-white male deaths are spoilers. Except for Ramirez, I guess. Her death was meaningless because she was meaningless.

And iunno. A lot of games feature Americans, Nazis, or Russians as the primary antagonists. That's because a lot of countries will ban games that revolve around you killing people from said country. But Russia doesn't care, America doesn't ban games very often, the Nazis are a universally accepted target.

 

[ShiningAmber]

I think you guys are putting waaaaaaay too much into a person's opinion.

Oh god, someone wants more female leads. Let's go off on a tirade about feminists.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I've argued this before so I'll do it again, albeit briefly. In western narrative history, the most variations of the heroic archetype are defaulted to male. If you want to swap genders, that's fine, but that decision needs to have a reason beyond simple aestetics. Even Bayonetta at least offered some payoff to the female lead beyond the obvious titillation with that entire motherhood plot.

What precisely is gained by making Joel into a female? How much sense does it make to play The Last of Us entirely from Ellie's perspective when that would mean that, for much of the game, she's having to hide while Joel does all of the work?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

My question is what's lost if Joel became a female protagonist? A female protagonist leading Ellie, or some male version of Ellie about is as close to motherhood as most guys get to fatherhood these days in games with some rare exceptions. I may as well jump the gun and ask, why does the female protagonist have to be blood relation to the person they take under their wing?

As far as playing as Ellie goes, you do for a chapter.
For the rest, maybe innovate combat a bit by not having the protagonist be the center of attention in a fight, instead you flank, stealth kill, attack from afar, and generally be the damage dealer while Joel tanks, and draws attention.
Heck, if you have to hide, that'd require a game with -good- stealth mechanics. Kinda rare games do stealth decently, isn't it?

I'm not saying the Last of Us needed to be gender swapped around, here, mind you. I'm just trying to show how it could've been swapped about.
My bigger point is the very idea that a female protagonist can't have the same motivations as a male protagonist in a world of fiction, which pretty much all videogames are, is a bit absurd at best.
Having to justify a female protagonist is also absurd at best. Just another roadblock against female protagonists, while male protagonists get a free pass, isn't it?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I've argued this before so I'll do it again, albeit briefly. In western narrative history, the most variations of the heroic archetype are defaulted to male. If you want to swap genders, that's fine, but that decision needs to have a reason beyond simple aestetics. Even Bayonetta at least offered some payoff to the female lead beyond the obvious titillation with that entire motherhood plot.

What precisely is gained by making Joel into a female? How much sense does it make to play The Last of Us entirely from Ellie's perspective when that would mean that, for much of the game, she's having to hide while Joel does all of the work?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

My question is what's lost if Joel became a female protagonist? A female protagonist leading Ellie, or some male version of Ellie about is as close to motherhood as most guys get to fatherhood these days in games with some rare exceptions. I may as well jump the gun and ask, why does the female protagonist have to be blood relation to the person they take under their wing?

As far as playing as Ellie goes, you do for a chapter.
For the rest, maybe innovate combat a bit by not having the protagonist be the center of attention in a fight, instead you flank, stealth kill, attack from afar, and generally be the damage dealer while Joel tanks, and draws attention.
Heck, if you have to hide, that'd require a game with -good- stealth mechanics. Kinda rare games do stealth decently, isn't it?

I'm not saying the Last of Us needed to be gender swapped around, here, mind you. I'm just trying to show how it could've been swapped about.
My bigger point is the very idea that a female protagonist can't have the same motivations as a male protagonist in a world of fiction, which pretty much all videogames are, is a bit absurd.
Having to justify a female protagonist is also absurd. Just another roadblock against female protagonists, while male protagonists get a free pass, isn't it?

Would you be okay with setting enemy women on fire and strangling them, too? And if not, why?

Apparently the male protagonist of Far Cry 3 is raped (I didn't play it), which did not generate controversy. Do you think it would, if a female was raped? Speaking of which, what do you think about the "controversy" of "rape" (imaginary) in the new Tomb Raider?

In a videogame? It's pretty simple. It's not real violence. I'm not lighting women on fire in reality. I'm not choking them out in reality.

Heck, I -have- done such things in videogames, though not in some super realistic fashion.

Incendiary ammo in SR3 vs the Syndicate's female units. Dynasty Warriors, and Romance of the three Kingdoms both have fire tactics/powers as commonalities, and while there's rarely the female soldier, there's female officers a plenty to contend with.

I've strangled, stabbed, lit on fire, etc. assorted women in many Tenchu games.

Mortal Kombat, anyone? Fighting games in general? Fighting games seem weirdly exempt from discussions like these where it's common, if not required to beat a woman senseless to beat the game. You fight them often with supernatural powers, chokeholds, submission maneuvers, fatalities, and so forth.

Heck, I've done stuff like you mention in Mass Effect without batting an eyelash thanks to incindiary ammo/powers, and the juggernaut's force lightning choke maneuver.

Heavenly Sword? You bet. What ever gets the job done.

It's not real, and I have enough common sense to know it's not real. Anyone who doesn't is either too far gone, or needs a talking to, IMO.

Another reason why? I can generally assume that anyone I kill in games that aren't sandbox violence-fests like GTA, and Saints Row all know what they're getting in to when they oppose my protagonist, just like anyone else, regardless of gender, or nature.

That said, I have little reason to care who I go through in a game. The only reason I'd care is if female protagonists were still held back as they are now while female enemies became common place. Bit of an unfair trade, I'd say.

I'm not trying to come off as some unfeeling psychopath here, rather the opposite.
Unless I was faced with a dire situation in reality, I sincerely doubt I'd just fight anyone, male, or female. I'm well aware the vast diffirence between videogame violence, and -real- violence, and real violence is something I'd like to avoid if at all possible.

There's no "if not" here. Not one that's any more relevant to the female gender than it is the male gender. I'd squeam at a greusome death regardless of gender. I know that much.

I didn't like the main protagonist of farcry's 3 rape (having seen it, I'm not sure i'd call it a rape, but it was still not good. See for yourself? It's on youtube last I checked. I might've looked at the wrong scene, but it looked like it could've been controvercial to me), and I was wary of the "rape" of Lara in tomb raider as i hadn't seen it myself at the time of the controvercy. Having played, and beaten the game, and gotten 100%, I can say that it kinda toed the line in the scenario, then completely sidestepped. And honestly, what Lara does to the guy when you pass te QTE made me squirm a bit.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

OK, Anita Sarkeesian (and the Sarkeesianites) hate when women get any hurt in games (by either the player or the villains), so I brought it up.

I didn't even know Heavenly Sword have female enemies. Oh wait, this demon chick that teleports or something like that? Another game that I've missed, only played the demo.

Incendiary ammo in SR3 vs the Syndicate's female units. Dynasty Warriors, and Romance of the three Kingdoms both have fire tactics/powers as commonalities, and while there's rarely the female soldier, there's female officers a plenty to contend with.

Speaking of which, powerful females in charge of masses of male enemies are pretty common in games. Even at the top (Battletoads, Sin, the first Red Faction, and so on). I guess it might be another of these dreaded "harmful tropes".

/Troops Vs Women in Video Games

I'm not much of a feminist, nor a huge fan of Anita.

Having watched Anita's vids, though, I don't think she hates it when women are hurt in general as far as videogames go. I think it's more the intense frequency of them being hurt in some of the worst ways far more commonly than male protagonists.
Sure you mow down thousands of guys in games, but women generally get mercykilled, killed off to make the protagonist mad, or just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and generally used as plot devises to make the villain look more villainous... not like you weren't on your way to beat up the villain anyhow, right?
But like I said, when a person is killed off with poor justification, it bothers me regardless of their gender.

Heavenly sword had a female lieutenant who teleported via swimming quickly under water, and later on some female ninja types that were something of elite soldiers. They don't get any special treatment other than that. I'm not sure of there were any more female enemies aside from them.

As far as women being in charge, they're usually NPC, not that I don't mind women being NPCs too much. I just want them to be protagonists more. Frankly it's more meaningful when I actually play as a woman as opposed to see women in power as NPCs, or the villainess of the plot.
The lack of female representation as protagonists could potentially be harmful. I know it's annoying to me, not just that they're rare, but the reasons they are rare.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

No, that without some reason to alter the gender the choice is purely aesthetic.

My question is what's lost if Joel became a female protagonist? A female protagonist leading Ellie, or some male version of Ellie about is as close to motherhood as most guys get to fatherhood these days in games with some rare exceptions. I may as well jump the gun and ask, why does the female protagonist have to be blood relation to the person they take under their wing?

For the role to fit, the fundamental character of Joel would have to be rewritten. Given how much of Joel's character is the result of him failing his paternal duties as protector of the family. Using this exact same character arc only using a female character has a female playing an archetypical male role. Nothing is gained or loss by the choice to swap genders in such a case. If aspects of Joel's personality were altered as well, then such a swap could be meaningful.

I suppose my fundamental point is this: if all you're going to do is swap genders around and change literally nothing else, then the only reason gender is important is aesthetic. Skyrim takes this to the extreme such that gender is an entirely irrelevant distinction.

Arguing that Joel's role should have been filled by a female is silly unless you can produce some sort of reason the change should be made. Just as arguing that Jade's character in Beyond Good and Evil ought to be male is baseless unless you can offer some narrative reason for the switch.

 

[Dragonbums]

Now I never played the game, so this commentary is going to be based on the reviews.

It's cool that he likes Ellen more than Joel...but how exactly is this the failing of Naughty Dog?
Considering how they had a hard enough time putting her on the cover and all.
This is your opinion. You cannot take that and say it's a legitimate problem with the game. Can the story be better with her as a focus sometimes? Yes, probably, however just as many people have no problem with Joel.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Having watched Anita's vids, though, I don't think she hates it when women are hurt in general. I think it's more the intense frequency

Or feminist frequency. [rimshot]

of them being hurt in some of the worst ways far more commonly than male protagonists.

Which is just not true.

Some examples of how she lies about it, by getting her chosen examples presented completely out of context and knowingly misinterpreting these games with all her dishonesty:

The Darkness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cNJj85efRM

Borderlands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMPEB0bNlIs

General responses to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y6nPjz_Od4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFWQEQUT5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfhy0KOYElI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQq6WVQCNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuRMKZU4IwA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD7hZW1l4As
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8nWZE4D9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvApeSSd_Wc

Alright, for the hell of it, I'm going to try and shed some light on Anita's point of view, and her points since people are so intent on bashing her, and ignore her points based solely on her character.

I think you, and the rest are generally missing the context here, honestly. It's not really -why- the women get victimized. Context doesn't matter!
It's the fact that things like that does happen, time, and time again and that it's fairly common. Women get defaulted as in the role of plot device almost as much as men get defaulted as the protagonist.

What I think Anita's points are boils down to, IMO, is the following:
Does the woman get used as a plot device, and mistreated, killed, mutated, or some combination of those things in her examples? It's a yes, or no question.
Does it happen really often? It's a yes, or no question.
Did it happen more often? Again, it's a yes, or no question.
Is it often the male that rescues the woman? ... you get the idea.
Anita seems to be looking at it in a black, and white view, and honestly, I think people need to do that some times instead of excusing the use of the tropes outright.
Making excuses for these incidents just allows it to keep happening as those excuses are going to get used. So long as it keeps happening often, well, Anita'll have fuel for the fire, it seems.

Why couldn't it have been the protagonist's brother in the Darkness instead of the girlfriend? Or a male friend? Or a boyfriend, even?
Why couldn't the woman you kill in borderlands be a guy?
I don't mean reatroactively change them, I mean why can't people write the game, originally, that way?

I'm not saying it can't happen ever, that a woman is sacrificed for the plot, mind you. I think I made it abundantly clear I'm for equal parts for any and all genders in a game. I just feel she has some point in the frequency of how often it's the woman that gets killed, kidnapped, and generally gets mistreated just to tick off the protagonist, though. Hell, a lot of the people that criticise her -agree- on some of her points. Not all of them, but some!

I'm not saying Anita's 100% correct, or that she presents it in the best way. 'm not saying I like her, or that she should be the face of the movement of getting women better representation.
Honestly, I'm just looking at all the points of view on the matter as best I can, and giving Anita some benefit of the doubt in some areas for the sake of trying to expand a bit on the way I see her point of view. She may not bring up her points in the best ways, but she has points, doesn't she?
Are you going to let the character of the presenter be what makes you disagree with the presenter outright, and not the points themselves?
Again, a lot of people refuting her agree with her on some points, and they often bring the same gripes I have with the industry in the lack of representation of women in games, and the poor representation of women in games.

I'm just not going to go through, and break down all my problems with the replies to Anita, nor am I going to point out what points they might have. You've provided hours of videos, and each is pretty unique in it's view. Each has their flaws, and their strengths. I could dissect a lot of them, and reply to them, but meh. <.<
Frankly, the whole feud with Anita doesn't interest me, and a lot of refuters are attacking her character or giving their own opinions more than proving her wrong.

...Okay, I gotta point out one gripe. Personally? The whole "the female NPC is powerful, though!!" argument doesn't fly well with me. I don't entirely care how powerful the NPC is, especially if I never really see that power. To me?
The -real- power is the playable character for me. The character I spend pretty much all my time with in the game. My avatar in the world, and it just so happens I like it when said avatar is female.

A lot of the problems people have with her is how she presents herself, and how she presents her points, not entirely her points in and of themselves. Her character's not going to be the end all, and be all to her with me. She has a point. Several of them, really. So do the people refuting her. They sometimes reach a middle ground!
Just because they're refuting her, and disagreeing with her doesn't mean she's entirely wrong. Even the people refuting her admit that much.

In the end, believe what you want to believe.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying a male protagonist is fine as default, but a female one has to be justified?

No, that without some reason to alter the gender the choice is purely aesthetic.

My question is what's lost if Joel became a female protagonist? A female protagonist leading Ellie, or some male version of Ellie about is as close to motherhood as most guys get to fatherhood these days in games with some rare exceptions. I may as well jump the gun and ask, why does the female protagonist have to be blood relation to the person they take under their wing?

For the role to fit, the fundamental character of Joel would have to be rewritten. Given how much of Joel's character is the result of him failing his paternal duties as protector of the family. Using this exact same character arc only using a female character has a female playing an archetypical male role. Nothing is gained or loss by the choice to swap genders in such a case. If aspects of Joel's personality were altered as well, then such a swap could be meaningful.

I suppose my fundamental point is this: if all you're going to do is swap genders around and change literally nothing else, then the only reason gender is important is aesthetic. Skyrim takes this to the extreme such that gender is an entirely irrelevant distinction.

Arguing that Joel's role should have been filled by a female is silly unless you can produce some sort of reason the change should be made. Just as arguing that Jade's character in Beyond Good and Evil ought to be male is baseless unless you can offer some narrative reason for the switch.

Frankly, the game can stay the way it is as far as I care. I guess my PoV was just broader than the point you wanted to make when I replied to you. That's on me.

I haven't played the game, mind you, but I don't think a fundamental change needs to be made to the character short of gender. Women can be the protectors of the family, and women can fail at it just like a guy can. Women can be thrust into that position not just in games, but in reality. I'm sure it has happened on both fronts.

Women can act like guys. More than a few do in reality. It wouldn't be a far stretch to see it happen in a game as far as I'm concerned. This is especially true when the world might end up thrusting her into that position.

I get what you're saying, though. Changing a character for no good reason is wrong. I agree with that.
It just grinds my gears that the gaming industry doesn't all agree on that.

And I do agree that gender is pretty irrelevant in Skyrim, and it's pretty much to a fault. Gender should be relevant to the world. While I have no problem seeing a woman act like a guy would, I certainly don't mind seeing women be more feminine now, and then, too. In short, I'd like to see a wide variety of personalities in both men, and women.

Personally I find aesthetics important. It's hard for me to trivialize when I can't guarentee an aesthetic choice will be released any time soon, or in the next gaming year, or any time in a good game.

 

[MammothBlade]

Almost throughout, however, it is actually the story of Joel, the older man. This is another video game by men, for men and about men.

Why don't you get your cronies in Washington to outlaw male protagonists then asshats?

*sigh*