The New York Times Criticizes The Last of Us for Having a Male Protagonist

[generals3]

Do I really need to link the jimquisition episodes on marketing, and ignoring customers who are there because your too focused on one slice of the market?

Why would you? Unless Jim majored in marketing his opinion is of no use to me. And focusing on a slice (or multiple slices) of a market is good marketing. You can't focus on all of them (that would lead to you neglecting them all).

To reiterate, they there prepared to throw away money because their focus was too narrow. Why are we assuming by narrowing their focus even further, their not just making the same mistake, even bigger? Why are we assuming their making money because of bonheaded decisions, and not in spite of them?

No. Assuming narrowing your focus is throwing money away is as wrong as it can get. By focusing on a segment you can increase the odds of that segment buying your product. Let me give you a random mathematical example:
Let's say you make a game which would have a potential costumer base consisting of 75% men and 25% women. Now if you don't focus on anyone you'll reach 50% of both segments leading to you acquiring 50% of the potential market. Now let's say you focus on men and get 75% of your male potential audience and 25% of your female potential audience. Suddenly you reach 62.5% of your potential audience. See how focusing on one segment leads to more money?

And lets bring in Confirmation Bias - we're told female led movies don't sell, but The Devil Wears Prada and Bridesmaids made a killing at the box office, only for these success ares ignored as flukes. 101 Male led movies can tank, but no-one thinks a male led movie will ever be a box office disaster.

.... I actually saw bridesmaids... And let me say one thing, it all depends on the target. A movie like bridesmaid is aimed at women to begin with. So having a female lead makes sense. That doesn't mean the Terminator would work as well with a female lead as a male lead. It's the same here, violent videogames are preferred by men and as such it is assumed a male lead will sell more. But that doesn't mean a game in a female-dominated segment will sell better with a male lead.

 

[mjelaine]

Over-react much?

Jeez.

The reviewer was simply saying that it's a great game but he would've prefered Ellie as the main-playable character. Which seems understandable. The slightly unshaven, grizzled, older male has been done to death in video games.

But, sadly, the second anyone even mentions "Oh gee, it'd be nice to see a female protagonist", everyone starts to panic and flail about FEMINISTS and YOU'D COMPLAIN JUST AS MUCH IF SHE WAS FEMALE and WE CANT WIN OH GOD SEND HELP

(Yes, getting to play as Ellie for a chapter is great and a step in the right direction but with the ridiculous amount of male protagonists getting entire games, a female getting one chapter is pretty paltry. I've been sucking it up and playing grizzled dudes with stubble for 10+ years. It's getting old.)

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Guess this is what gaming has been reduced to now, complaining every time the main character isn't a female.

Even though Ellie is one of the best females characters EVER seen in a game and Joel is kinda generic-though-interesting (grizzled, unshaven, older white guy with a dramatic history). Don't get me wrong, the relationship between Joel and Ellie was fantastic but I liked her as a character way more.

Not to mention Tess, you may not see her throughout the entire game but she was also a great character.

You can even play as Ellie for a massively important section of the game and Naughty Dog fought like hell to keep Ellie on the front cover. What more do you want?

You know it might get to that point at this rate now that the slimy underside of the gaming industry has been partly exposed. I can actually see it happening more, and more.

It kinda ties into "what more" I want.

I want more female protagonists. I don't seem to be alone in this either.

Maybe if we got more, the grounds to complain about the lack of them would go away?

"What more" do I want?
I want developers to not get blocked by producers for having women prominent in the game.
Like you said, ND had to fight to keep Ellie on the cover. They also had to request female focus testers because they weren't even considered. The shouldn't have felt the need to do that because the opinions of women could be taken into account more.
I gotta wonder how often things like this actually happen?

Dontnod had to deal with producers that wanted Nilin to be a guy. Dontnod wanted Nilin to have something of a love life which got kaboshed. That's an example that needs to never happen again.

Remember Me got all of nil commercials on TV. No marketing as far as I can tell. Things like that could change, too? Tomb raider barely got any marketing. I'm wondering if Beyond Two Souls will.

So to sum it up, I want female protagonists to not be targeted for elimination especially as protagonists, not restricted in agency, and generally just allowed to exist as females with lives without the obstacles. I'd imagine guy protagonists get to do that all the time.

That's pretty much what I want changed. Things that could be changed fairly easily I think. Things that'd at least help lessen the frequency of these topics at the very least.
It's a very simple solution! The game industry needs to STOP IT! Stop targeting women as problems!!

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I'm saying that I doubt that they do just assume anything. Doesn't everyone do market research? Which seems alot like the opposite of being happy to just assume that something is true.

It's not to say that a game couldn't subvert the industry norms and be successful(good ideas often come from out on the fringe). It's to say that the people getting indignant about these companies not gambling should get over themselves. If there was truly as big of an untapped market as a lot of people are claiming, somebody would stroll in and clean up.

I don't understand how people can in good-conscience be talking about what these companies should do without knowing what they're talking about.

Well, lets see what these companies 'know what their doing'.

lets see, EA. 'they know what their doing' by antagonising their customer bases and hemorrhaging money.

Activision. they 'knew what they were doing' when they drove an entire genre and top selling franchise into the ground by release multiple titles for it in a matter of months. And when marketing was telling them that the big thing at the moment was WWII shooters, they did their damnedest to stop infinity ward from making Modern Warfare. This company we trust to 'know what its doing' would have killed its cash cow franchise, and lost god knows how much money because everybody though they should be making World War II shooters.

These are the companies who's words we're supposed to accept that female characters are a bad idea.

I think you maybe have 1 workable example there.

EA seeing what they can get away with is different, and I'm not really convinced that the popularity of plastic guitar controller games would have been more sustainable if they'd only staggered releases more. They may well have done the right thing by cashing in while the fad was at it's peak.

I didn't know that about MW. If it's true, it's interesting... but not shocking.

You're trying to put words in my mouth and I'm not going to open the hanger for that loaded spoon-plane to land. I didn't say that female characters are a bad idea(I actually enjoy them just fine), I was pointing out that people insisting that they'd definitely be popularly received need to buy a clue. That assertion is a guess.

You don't have to show utter deference to the companies, but you can't really act like they're always wrong either. They get some things right, they'd really have to-to stay in business.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

But, sadly, the second anyone even mentions "Oh gee, it'd be nice to see a female protagonist", everyone starts to panic and flail about FEMINISTS and YOU'D COMPLAIN JUST AS MUCH IF SHE WAS FEMALE and WE CANT WIN OH GOD SEND HELP)

Funny how you resort to the same broad brush reactionary commenting while at the same time criticizing others for doing the same.

The game industry is slowly changing, yes behind the curve of the changing demographics of their audience, but that has been the case of just about every social issues most more important than the one we are discussing.

 

[comraderichard]

I hadn't played the game, and don't plan on buying it because:
A) I'm sick, and tired of being some guy in a videogame. I've been doing it for decades by and large. On occassion I can be enticed to play as a guy, but I'd rather save my cash for something more inclusive of my gender. Ya know, reward those people that give a damn about the female gender enough to let them be playable, and then it's just hoping they're not shunted into stereotypical roles, or somehow given the worse of the power sets that are fairly useless compared to the male counterparts.

B) The story didn't grab me. Not enough to make the game a priority buy anyhow.

You haven't played the game... because the story didn't grab you...? Wut? Did you watch a Let's Play or something? I assume you didn't otherwise you'd know you get to play as Ellie in one chapter. And not just a few minutes, but for a good long while.

This is without a doubt one of if not the most mature game this generation. And if you simply ignore it because you play as a dude, you're the same as all those guys that don't wanna play as a chick cuz cooties.

Storywise, what does it have that the Walking Dead from Tell Tale Games didn't? Zombies, apocalypse, etc. Aside from playing as the girl you protect for most of the game for a chapter which is apparently your big pitch?
Of course I know you get to play as Ellie. The article linked to in post 1 says as much.

Ya wanna talk about maturity? What about having the maturity to recognize that guys don't have to be the game's hero, and main protagonist? What about the portrayal of women in the role of hero and main protagonist? Dealing with their lives, and love lives/interests, and so forth? That women can face hardships, deal with life changing events, and change to become less dainty, and more rugged? That women come in all persoanlity types? That guys aren't the only ones that can have their preconceived notions ripped out at the roots?
It's not a huge leap to have a guy as the hero learning something, or facing adversity, or such. That's not maturing, that's the status quo.

And I didn't simply ignore it because I play as a guy. The story, something direly important in games like this, did not get my attention enough for me to prioritize it over games I find more interesting. It's not really doing anything new, interesting, and/or fun for me.

And unlike the people that you compare me to, I actually have, and certainly plan on playing as some male protagonist only games because the game presented something new, or I respected the subject, or both. And gleefully, too! I've said as much, didn't I? Red Dead Redemption, Arkham City (I'll get asylum eventually! I'm a fan of Kevin Conroy as batman, and Mark Hamil as Joker), and I'm actually looking forward to the Deadpool game. There's a short list.
Nice try to demonize me, though. <.<

It'd be nice if the people you liken me to would do the same, but that'd require a female protagonist so well written, possibly already established, or part of an established brand getting advertised in an awesome manner, and being in an awesome game, wouldn't it? Huh, I wonder when that'll perfect storm will happen?

Sure, Last of Us no doubt forces you to be Ellie for a single chapter, but is it enough to really impact those people you liken me to?

And it's not the "cooties" factor at all. Not even close. It's the oversaturation of dudebro gunmen, white guy protagonists, and stuff that bore me to tears, and turns me off. The usual mid 20s-mid 30s white guy protagonist with sensible haircuts, usually graced with rugged good looks, usually graced with some pretty nice personality traits, and stuff. The game industry does the same thing over, and over, and over again by and large. I'm less inclined to reward them for playing it safe. I'd rather spend money on the risk takers so they're inclined to continue taking the risks in providing something diffirent from the norm.
Sure they let you play as Ellie for a chapter, but really? That's going to be the selling point here? My counterpoint is why couldn't they let you be Ellie all the time? That'd impress me! Why not have an Ellie PoV mode?
Sure ND took important steps (to me at least) in kicking down a pillar or two of the conventional wisdom that the presense of playable women harm sales, but I'm dissapointed they're not taking it further. Instead they're still playing it mostly safe since people believe that a woman on the cover harms sales.

Like I said, I've been playing the role of white guy hero for a very long time. I'm starved for variation. I'm starved to play my own gender most of all, especially from one end of the game to the other. Is it wrong that I want the rare luxury of playing my own gender for the majority of a game more than playing some guy? It'd be diffirent if it wasn't rare, I assure you of that! I certainly don't have the income for many games per year, so I have to wait, and be choosey. I can't buy every gaming system in the hopes to play the rare, spread out female protagonsits either.

I'm pretty certain most guys can't grasp my angle considering that they get so much representation, and can occassionaly get variation. Maybe if they were in a minority themselves, since most racial minorities are under represented, too? Or the LGBTQ community, too? I dunno.

Like I said, though, I applaud the hell out of Naughty Dog for taking a stand on the focus groups, and Ellie staying on the cover, but there's games that give me what I crave already out there, and in the near future. I have little budget for luxuries, so I have to be choosey about what games I get regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I guess it's a good thing that the games I'm after are so damned rare in themselves, huh?

While I can understand your frustration over being pidgeon-holed, despite you just saying I can't get where you're coming from because I have a penis, I think maybe your rant will do more to damage your position than enforce it. Joel is not a dudebro, he's a grumpy old man who often struggles to relate with Ellie, and he's not an out-and-out good guy either: there are moments where he's the moral superior, but those are few and far between, and Ellie tries her best to balance him out. On the chapter involving playing as Ellie you're seriously underestimating the impact it has as well as its' length, I dare say it was more entertaining than being Joel. Essentially, where I'm getting to is, saying that males don't get is just because they're male is not doing anything to help endear people to your plight - throw in a little 'white male privilege' and you've got a recipe for a shitstorm. I understand being a under-represented minority: not in terms of gender or race, I understand your grievances (as well as the grievances of ethnic groups) with these based on my own lack of political representation. I constantly feel like us lefty pro-labor types are utterly drowned out, being little more than the Union Thug or ineffectual bureaucrat in popular media.

I understand you, I'm sorry that things have made you this hostile, but please try to temper yourself. I'm not saying turn off your emotions, but just pause to consider the ramifications of it you just cut loose like that. I've paid for that quite a few times...

UPDATE: There is also another point I wanted to bring up, speaking as a feminist (because I have to stress this constantly or apparently my opinions are invalid) and a lefty a lot of the fear of this under-representation also stems from worries over creative shackling. I want all things to be valid: all ideas, all characters, hell I think a transsexual protagonist would be pretty awesome - but we need to avoid exchanging one set of limitations for another - outdated male conservatism for politically correct elitism. Everything must be valid, fair, and allowed to be expressed in art: whether it is shunned or not once it is out there should be left to the public to decide. I'm not saying I'm afraid of that, though I confess I kind of am based on some posters almost saying we should have quotas or something, but it's a good idea to understand the fear your detractors have isn't entirely without cause.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I hadn't played the game, and don't plan on buying it because:
A) I'm sick, and tired of being some guy in a videogame. I've been doing it for decades by and large. On occassion I can be enticed to play as a guy, but I'd rather save my cash for something more inclusive of my gender. Ya know, reward those people that give a damn about the female gender enough to let them be playable, and then it's just hoping they're not shunted into stereotypical roles, or somehow given the worse of the power sets that are fairly useless compared to the male counterparts.

B) The story didn't grab me. Not enough to make the game a priority buy anyhow.

You haven't played the game... because the story didn't grab you...? Wut? Did you watch a Let's Play or something? I assume you didn't otherwise you'd know you get to play as Ellie in one chapter. And not just a few minutes, but for a good long while.

This is without a doubt one of if not the most mature game this generation. And if you simply ignore it because you play as a dude, you're the same as all those guys that don't wanna play as a chick cuz cooties.

Storywise, what does it have that the Walking Dead from Tell Tale Games didn't? Zombies, apocalypse, etc. Aside from playing as the girl you protect for most of the game for a chapter which is apparently your big pitch?
Of course I know you get to play as Ellie. The article linked to in post 1 says as much.

Ya wanna talk about maturity? What about having the maturity to recognize that guys don't have to be the game's hero, and main protagonist? What about the portrayal of women in the role of hero and main protagonist? Dealing with their lives, and love lives/interests, and so forth? That women can face hardships, deal with life changing events, and change to become less dainty, and more rugged? That women come in all persoanlity types? That guys aren't the only ones that can have their preconceived notions ripped out at the roots?
It's not a huge leap to have a guy as the hero learning something, or facing adversity, or such. That's not maturing, that's the status quo.

And I didn't simply ignore it because I play as a guy. The story, something direly important in games like this, did not get my attention enough for me to prioritize it over games I find more interesting. It's not really doing anything new, interesting, and/or fun for me.

And unlike the people that you compare me to, I actually have, and certainly plan on playing as some male protagonist only games because the game presented something new, or I respected the subject, or both. And gleefully, too! I've said as much, didn't I? Red Dead Redemption, Arkham City (I'll get asylum eventually! I'm a fan of Kevin Conroy as batman, and Mark Hamil as Joker), and I'm actually looking forward to the Deadpool game. There's a short list.
Nice try to demonize me, though. <.<

It'd be nice if the people you liken me to would do the same, but that'd require a female protagonist so well written, possibly already established, or part of an established brand getting advertised in an awesome manner, and being in an awesome game, wouldn't it? Huh, I wonder when that'll perfect storm will happen?

Sure, Last of Us no doubt forces you to be Ellie for a single chapter, but is it enough to really impact those people you liken me to?

And it's not the "cooties" factor at all. Not even close. It's the oversaturation of dudebro gunmen, white guy protagonists, and stuff that bore me to tears, and turns me off. The usual mid 20s-mid 30s white guy protagonist with sensible haircuts, usually graced with rugged good looks, usually graced with some pretty nice personality traits, and stuff. The game industry does the same thing over, and over, and over again by and large. I'm less inclined to reward them for playing it safe. I'd rather spend money on the risk takers so they're inclined to continue taking the risks in providing something diffirent from the norm.
Sure they let you play as Ellie for a chapter, but really? That's going to be the selling point here? My counterpoint is why couldn't they let you be Ellie all the time? That'd impress me! Why not have an Ellie PoV mode?
Sure ND took important steps (to me at least) in kicking down a pillar or two of the conventional wisdom that the presense of playable women harm sales, but I'm dissapointed they're not taking it further. Instead they're still playing it mostly safe since people believe that a woman on the cover harms sales.

Like I said, I've been playing the role of white guy hero for a very long time. I'm starved for variation. I'm starved to play my own gender most of all, especially from one end of the game to the other. Is it wrong that I want the rare luxury of playing my own gender for the majority of a game more than playing some guy? It'd be diffirent if it wasn't rare, I assure you of that! I certainly don't have the income for many games per year, so I have to wait, and be choosey. I can't buy every gaming system in the hopes to play the rare, spread out female protagonsits either.

I'm pretty certain most guys can't grasp my angle considering that they get so much representation, and can occassionaly get variation. Maybe if they were in a minority themselves, since most racial minorities are under represented, too? Or the LGBTQ community, too? I dunno.

Like I said, though, I applaud the hell out of Naughty Dog for taking a stand on the focus groups, and Ellie staying on the cover, but there's games that give me what I crave already out there, and in the near future. I have little budget for luxuries, so I have to be choosey about what games I get regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I guess it's a good thing that the games I'm after are so damned rare in themselves, huh?

While I can understand your frustration over being pidgeon-holed, despite you just saying I can't get where you're coming from because I have a penis, I think maybe your rant will do more to damage your position than enforce it. Joel is not a dudebro, he's a grumpy old man who often struggles to relate with Ellie, and he's not an out-and-out good guy either: there are moments where he's the moral superior, but those are few and far between, and Ellie tries her best to balance him out. On the chapter involving playing as Ellie you're seriously underestimating the impact it has as well as its' length, I dare say it was more entertaining than being Joel. Essentially, where I'm getting to is, saying that males don't get is just because they're male is not doing anything to help endear people to your plight - throw in a little 'white male privilege' and you've got a recipe for a shitstorm. I understand being a under-represented minority: not in terms of gender or race, I understand your grievances (as well as the grievances of ethnic groups) with these based on my own lack of political representation. I constantly feel like us lefty pro-labor types are utterly drowned out, being little more than the Union Thug or ineffectual bureaucrat in popular media.

I understand you, I'm sorry that things have made you this hostile, but please try to temper yourself. I'm not saying turn off your emotions, but just pause to consider the ramifications of it you just cut loose like that. I've paid for that quite a few times...

UPDATE: There is also another point I wanted to bring up, speaking as a feminist (because I have to stress this constantly or apparently my opinions are invalid) and a lefty a lot of the fear of this under-representation also stems from worries over creative shackling. I want all things to be valid: all ideas, all characters, hell I think a transsexual protagonist would be pretty awesome - but we need to avoid exchanging one set of limitations for another - outdated male conservatism for politically correct elitism. Everything must be valid, fair, and allowed to be expressed in art: whether it is shunned or not once it is out there should be left to the public to decide. I'm not saying I'm afraid of that, though I confess I kind of am based on some posters almost saying we should have quotas or something, but it's a good idea to understand the fear your detractors have isn't entirely without cause.

Now hold on, there, I never said it was impossible for a guy to understand my position.

I understand Joel's not the upstanding superman boyscout sort of guy, but he has more than a few good traits. Responsbility, loyalty, courage. At the least, those. It's a pretty common thread in protagonists. They're good traits.

As for Ellie's impact, I'm going to have to wait, and see. Not just in the eventuality I play the game (I'm not utterly discounting the game), but in what it does to the gaming industry.
The problem becomes "how much can I enjoy being Joel?" I'm not saying I can't enjoy being a guy, here. Batman, John Marston, Rikimaru, Liu Bei, Spiderman, Venom, Deadpool, I didn't mind playing as these characters.
I'll assuredly like Ellie more simply because it's a new gaming experience to say the least. I'm not sure what sort of gap there'll be in enjoying playing as Ellie vs playing as Joel. If the gap's too huge, ... I don't know.
Overall, how much will I enjoy the game, Joel and Ellie aside? Like I said, it's not just playing as Joel turning me off here.

Honestly, I'm not sure if you read my opening rant in this thread if you think the post you quoted is hostile.
I gotta vent. I'm not always hostile, or uncivil, but my claws need a workout now and again. I've paid for it, too! Believe me, I have.
Still, being civil's never really won me anything in this debate either. :/ Doesn't stop me from trying to be civil, though.

I'll be serious here. I don't see myself as a feminist. I just happen to have views that coincide with a lot of feminism towards videogames. I just call BS when I see it, and honestly, I think the videogame industry'll be some of the easiest changes to make.
I mean, I don't look at Mai Shiranui and think she needs more clothes. I don't think Bayonetta's a bad design, especially considering her personality.

I'm not shooting for a Politically Correct gaming industry. Granted it's pretty nice that minorities get included (I'm a half korean lesbian female, and growing up i saw like one other asian person my age), but I don't really wanna see anyone forced to do anything.
There in lies the problem. The gaming industry's already forcing people away from female protagonists, their agency, their chance to shine, and generally setting them up for failure from the getgo with a lack fo faith in advertising the product, and no one seems interested in giving the shot they deserve to prove themselves. Hell, even Square Enix seemed to put their sights too high for Tomb Raider, and called it a failure.

Even if a game with a female protagonist fails, is it the female protagonist's fault? Or is it the game they're in? or other factors? Considering the state of the gaming industry, even as it slowly changes, I'd say the gaming industry wants to think it is, indeed, the fault of the female protagonist and nothing else. It never occurs to them it might be the gameplay, the advertising the game gets, or anything else. How else can one explain the anti-female hero mentality some gaming companies have?

It's not like there's games with male only leads that fail, either.

Hell, if it gets out of hand, I'd hate to see a Politically Correct gaming industry forcing people to conform. I don't want to see creative visions oppressed. On the other hand, there's that tempting notion of the questions "Does the male protagonist have to be white? Why can't be be another ethnicity? Or even another gender?"
The gaming industry doesn't mind asking it about female protagonists. Especially if they have to be female. X(

Sorry for ranting again.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Storywise, what does it have that the Walking Dead from Tell Tale Games didn't? Zombies, apocalypse, etc. Aside from playing as the girl you protect for most of the game for a chapter which is apparently your big pitch?
Of course I know you get to play as Ellie. The article linked to in post 1 says as much.

Ya wanna talk about maturity? What about having the maturity to recognize that guys don't have to be the game's hero, and main protagonist? What about the portrayal of women in the role of hero and main protagonist? Dealing with their lives, and love lives/interests, and so forth? That women can face hardships, deal with life changing events, and change to become less dainty, and more rugged? That women come in all persoanlity types? That guys aren't the only ones that can have their preconceived notions ripped out at the roots?
It's not a huge leap to have a guy as the hero learning something, or facing adversity, or such. That's not maturing, that's the status quo.

Then you have no idea how this game will surprise you. Seriously. Actually telling you why would spoil the whole thing, so I'll just say that it completely turns the familiar on its ear.

And no matter the similarities with The Walking Dead, it totally side steps it.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Storywise, what does it have that the Walking Dead from Tell Tale Games didn't? Zombies, apocalypse, etc. Aside from playing as the girl you protect for most of the game for a chapter which is apparently your big pitch?
Of course I know you get to play as Ellie. The article linked to in post 1 says as much.

Ya wanna talk about maturity? What about having the maturity to recognize that guys don't have to be the game's hero, and main protagonist? What about the portrayal of women in the role of hero and main protagonist? Dealing with their lives, and love lives/interests, and so forth? That women can face hardships, deal with life changing events, and change to become less dainty, and more rugged? That women come in all persoanlity types? That guys aren't the only ones that can have their preconceived notions ripped out at the roots?
It's not a huge leap to have a guy as the hero learning something, or facing adversity, or such. That's not maturing, that's the status quo.

Then you have no idea how this game will surprise you. Seriously. Actually telling you why would spoil the whole thing, so I'll just say that it completely turns the familiar on its ear.

And no matter the similarities with The Walking Dead, it totally side steps it.

Fair enough. I've bumped it up my gaming priorities list, then. Dunno when I can get around to getting it, though, but I plan on it.

I just hope that when I get it, it lives up to the hype generated. I'm certainly hoping I don't hate the gameplay, the experience as Joel (whom I'm going to be interacting with the world as for the most part), and/or so forth.

Do keep in mind that I don't hold NPCs in the same regard as actual playable characters. I don't entirely care about how good an NPC is if the character I play pales in comparasin to how awesome the NPC is. Infact it generally makes it a worse experience as I'd rather be that NPC. <.<
All the great NPCs in the world don't stack up all too well to a really good main character. The Main character, the protagonist, is the largest source of my fun. They are the conduit inwhich I interact with the world.

And even if The Last of Us is some rare exception to the status quo of the games produced, I'd still say a lot of my points will still stand in general until they're addressed in a more widely accepted, and somewhat common manner.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Fair enough. I've bumped it up my gaming priorities list, then. Dunno when I can get around to getting it, though, but I plan on it.

I just hope that when I get it, it lives up to the hype generated. I'm certainly hoping I don't hate the gameplay, the experience as Joel (whom I'm going to be interacting with the world as for the most part), and/or so forth.

Do keep in mind that I don't hold NPCs in the same regard as actual playable characters. I don't entirely care about how good an NPC is if the character I play pales in comparasin to how awesome the NPC is. Infact it generally makes it a worse experience as I'd rather be that NPC. <.<
All the great NPCs in the world don't stack up all too well to a really good main character. The Main character, the protagonist, is the largest source of my fun. They are the conduit inwhich I interact with the world.

And even if The Last of Us is some rare exception to the status quo of the games produced, I'd still say a lot of my points will still stand in general until they're addressed in a more widely accepted, and somewhat common manner.

Just don't go pitchforking me if you happen to not like it, 'kay?

Right now there's a lot of hype for this game, deservedly so, but try to go into it with a clear mind. I actually went into this game expecting just a run-of-the-mill Uncharted action game, but the game shows extreme restraint and subtlety how it handles everything, from the characters, to the story, the levels, and the gameplay. It very slowly snuck up on me, and before I realized it I was head over heels.

 

[Red_Diver]

Rebel_Raven, what are you talking about? Every Final Fantasy past 7 has been filled with nothing but main characters that are card-carrying members of the LGBT community.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Fair enough. I've bumped it up my gaming priorities list, then. Dunno when I can get around to getting it, though, but I plan on it.

I just hope that when I get it, it lives up to the hype generated. I'm certainly hoping I don't hate the gameplay, the experience as Joel (whom I'm going to be interacting with the world as for the most part), and/or so forth.

Do keep in mind that I don't hold NPCs in the same regard as actual playable characters. I don't entirely care about how good an NPC is if the character I play pales in comparasin to how awesome the NPC is. Infact it generally makes it a worse experience as I'd rather be that NPC. <.<
All the great NPCs in the world don't stack up all too well to a really good main character. The Main character, the protagonist, is the largest source of my fun. They are the conduit inwhich I interact with the world.

And even if The Last of Us is some rare exception to the status quo of the games produced, I'd still say a lot of my points will still stand in general until they're addressed in a more widely accepted, and somewhat common manner.

Just don't go pitchforking me if you happen to not like it, 'kay?

Right now there's a lot of hype for this game, deservedly so, but try to go into it with a clear mind. I actually went into this game expecting just a run-of-the-mill Uncharted action game, but the game shows extreme restraint and subtlety how it handles everything, from the characters, to the story, the levels, and the gameplay. It very slowly snuck up on me, and before I realized it I was head over heels.

I can't promise anything. It's a risk of hyping a game!
If playing as Ellie is the only bright spot in the game, I'll assuredly say so, with notes on my bias, of course. Joel would have to be ... just boring, and predictable for that to happen, though. It'd have to be a miserable experience on many levels. Male protagonists have surprised me, sure, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'm definitely not going in expecting an Uncharted experience. I'm more expecting a long, stellar escort mission with a capable AI backing me up during survival horror/stealth elements. I certainly hope she doesn't just vanish when things get bad. I don't expect the Ai to carry me, but, well, I'm sure we've all seen bad escort missions.

All in all, we'll see what happens. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be next week, it might not even be next month, *takes a moment to curse my limited luxury budget* but I'll get to it.

 

[Raggedstar]

Personally, regarding how the game's plot and focus is, the game is fine the way it is. Bringing in the whole "oh this is a game where you play a grizzled old man instead of his spry female sidekick" doesn't seem to make sense in context of the game.

Spoiler: Spoilers for part of the game

That whole "Winter" chapter felt special to me not just because it's the only time you play as Ellie (besides the end). It's special in respect that this is also the most brutal, challenging, and downright revolting chapter in the entire game. Playing Ellie kind of enhanced that feeling, as well as gave her strong development. The contrast that chapter brought would've been different if this was something you saw more frequently in-game. Here you see that Ellie can really stand up for herself and her reactions to being alone and faced with an entire village of crazies. You see how far Ellie would go to help Joel. Ellie also plays slightly differently, being not as physically strong, can't take down people as efficiently, and is a more reckless attacker. She's scared out of her mind, but she overcomes it in the game's most brutal chapter (the fact that it's also in winter, the harshest of all seasons, is a bonus). To be honest, unless the game was re-written/re-built, I don't know if the events of this chapter would've been as powerful.

Regarding Ellie's role as an AI sidekick over being playable (in general), again, I think I prefer it the way it is. Being an AI makes her actions more genuine as opposed to something looking 100% scripted or something she "has to do". Oh sure some of them are scripted in cutscenes, but I mean her actions in gameplay where she warns you of threats, throws bottles, or stabs a man trying to choke you. It's just how she is (if that makes sense). I didn't tell her to help me/Joel, but she did. I guess that's just her being made as a friendly AI, but they did it right.

Not to mention I'm not ok with the idea of something infinitely being better by playing as a female character. What most people are hoping for is that devs would be ALLOWED to make games with female main characters without fear of scrutiny, female characters would be written better, and not be sexualized. For the most part (minus Ellie being made the sole playable character and instead being about a grizzled 50-ish year old grumpy man), this game delivers on it and I would call it a victory or at the very least a step in the right direction. I doubt Naughty Dog wanted to make Ellie 100% playable anyways, which is ok since it wasn't in the vision. Not really a "wasted opportunity", even though Ellie is great. If Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was made today, would it be a wasted opportunity if Farah wasn't playable?

In short, there shouldn't be a checklist saying "we must have a playable female character for a minimum of 51% of the game in order for it to stand out as 'not just another manly man game' game". I guess that's a way to summarize this post in one sentence.

 

[OuroborosChoked]

Who really cares what the gender of the protagonist is?

No, I'm completely serious. Does the fact that the character is the opposite gender from you prevent you from "getting into" the game?

I always play female characters in any other RPG where you pick your gender, I loved Mirror's Edge, The Misadventures of Tron Bonne, all the Metroid games (sans Other M), Beyond Good and Evil, and on and on. I'm sure I'll pick up Remember Me at some point, too (I heard the fighting is a bit wonky). Gender won't stop me from buying a game. Gender is NOT a factor for me. I play the game for the environment, the story, the mechanics of the game, and the experience.

Why is this even a thing? Who is so hung up about this? Literally, WHO CARES?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Who really cares what the gender of the protagonist is?

No, I'm completely serious. Does the fact that the character is the opposite gender from you prevent you from "getting into" the game?

I always play female characters in any other RPG where you pick your gender, I loved Mirror's Edge, The Misadventures of Tron Bonne, all the Metroid games (sans Other M), Beyond Good and Evil, and on and on. I'm sure I'll pick up Remember Me at some point, too (I heard the fighting is a bit wonky). Gender won't stop me from buying a game. Gender is NOT a factor for me. I play the game for the environment, the story, the mechanics of the game, and the experience.

Why is this even a thing? Who is so hung up about this? Literally, WHO CARES?

Unfortunately producers, and developers care what gender the protagonist is. They don't want to support female protagonists, they discourage attempts to make female protagonists, they want female protagonists turned into guys, they don't want them on the covers, they don't want female protagonists to initiate relationships, when there is a female protagonists they are hard pressed to get advertising, and a female protagonist has to be justified where as guys don't.

It doesn't take much searching to find incidents of this. Jimquisition right here on escapist does a good job on covering the issues infact.

Also it's likely focus testers sometimes care. Not that they're fair, and balanced groups... or entirely truthful in what they want.

Stuff like what I mentioned are why topics like these are common, and made a fuss over for better or worse.
It's not entirely the gender of the protagonist that we're making a fuss over, but the practices that keep them from being made, too.

 

[DjinnFor]

You know what would have ruined the game? Making Ellie a playable character for more of the game.

She has a character arc where she

Spoiler

grows from an innocent, damsel in distress liability to a baddass main hero protagonist because the world they inhabit is not one where liabilities live very long. Unfortunately, compressing that character arc into the first 10 minutes of gameplay so that the gamer doesn't get bored would be completely stupid.

Spoiler

Notice how the stint with Joels daughter played out in the beginning and then trying to build a game off of a twenty year time skip where she was alive and a baddass... or making half the game play like that early stint.

This game would be objectively worse as it stands had Ellie been playable for more of the game, because either she would have to

Spoiler

start out an unlikable hero baddass and have no character arc and the entire story would collapse on itself, or you would get very bored, very quickly if they tried to make the game about being a damsel in distress for the first half.

It's almost as if the reviewer didn't think for one minute what the story was about or why it played out like it did.

It's not like the stint you play as Ellie

Spoiler

goes out of its way to make her weaker to draw negative inferences. The reality is, the only ability you give up while playing as her is the ability to fight in melee without using the environment or weapons to stun your foe first (you can still do it, you just take too much damage seeing as you don't get a hitstun off of regular melee attacks). In exchange, you get an unlimited durability melee weapon so that when you do stun enemies you don't have to worry about your weapon breaking. Plus, your stun kills and stealth kills are quicker, quieter and attract less attention.

She keeps the ability to craft, she keeps the ability to stealth kill, she has the concentration/listen mode that lets you see through walls, she can instant kill enemies, she can get into heated gunfights or stealth her way through. She's essentially just as strong as Joel is, and not only is this empowering for women, but she's also 14.

Edit: added spoiler tags just in case...

 

[comraderichard]

Rebel Raven stated it best, but to put it in the simplest way possible, companies choose to turn things that shouldn't be a big deal into a big deal (piracy, the sex of a character, etc) and thus we as consumers/gamers/whatever react to that. When a company actually feels the need to pander in regards of the most non-issue things (no one should care what sex/race your character is) than it BECOMES an issue, there needs to be a balance when it comes to catering a game to give you a specific experience.

If your game is story-focused and centered around a male protagonist from the get-go, it's fine, no one should try to boycott you over it so long as you remain tasteful (less we forget Custard's Revenge was a thing) BUT if you make a female character and constantly have your attempts to be creative with the story around that female character squashed, well, yeah, that's sexist and a dick move. Companies seem to do this based on over-reliance on focus groups, or of their own volition considering corporations are pretty insular overall. So, essentially, the fact it's an issue isn't because we're saying it's an issue, it's because the groups in question choose to make it an issue, and thus we react because they're stomping their dollar-emblazoned boot down on the throat of anyone wanting to give a fresh perspective. This stinginess mixed with many companies obsessive need to control is why many businesses get gigantic hatedoms, and in my opinion, is the basis for my argument against the private sector having too much freedom.

If they're free to put their boot on the throat of us common folk, than Big Brother should be able to put its' boot on Big Business' throat.

 

[OuroborosChoked]

Stuff like what I mentioned are why topics like these are common, and made a fuss over for better or worse.
It's not entirely the gender of the protagonist that we're making a fuss over, but the practices that keep them from being made, too.

Sorry, I'm still not getting why it's important that the genders of game leads matters. I get why female leads don't appear as much... that wasn't my question. The question was: who cares? Why does it matter? Who does it matter to?

Does the fact that the PC is male make the game better in any way? Is the inverse true? If there were ONLY ever male leads, would that diminish the art of moving boxes around in an artificial environment?

Keep in mind, video game characters not real. None of them are real. They're all completely fictional simulacra of human beings. They can literally have any traits we program them to have without the baggage of biology. Female characters can act, talk, move, look exactly like male characters in video games. For all intents and purposes, character models could be replaced with blank cubes, and it would make no difference. Characters are modeled after humans to give them an understandable shape to move within an environment... and most of the time it's not even necessary for what we have them do. FPS games, for example, could literally just be floating guns with no body, and they would play exactly the same way.

Further, how gender is addressed inside the game world is entirely based on the cultural norms of that game's world and is therefore completely abstract and - more or less - irrelevant to OUR cultural norms. There may be some overlap, but keep in mind that they are FICTIONAL WORLDS - you can't assume the same norms apply.

Finally, playing a male character (if you're female) doesn't lessen you, nor does playing a female character (if you're male). Who the character is should be irrelevant to who you are... unless you're some kind of sexist who just can't put up with playing as a character of the opposite gender. And if that's the case... if you JUST can't get over the gender of the PC... just don't buy the games you don't like! Show the game devs and publishers that you care tremendously about the gender identities of fictional people by not buying their products!

So again: who does this even matter to? If you like games, just play the games! If you don't, don't! What does the "gender" of a 3D model with a texture mapped on top of it matter?

 

[ultrachicken]

It sounds like the author used this review as a vehicle to complain about a valid issue in the games industry; namely, the male centered plots and marketing. However, the "This is another video game by men, for men and about men" complaint falls completely flat considering how Naughty Dog fought for Ellie to be on the cover and to get female focus testers. They obviously wanted her to be a prominent character and to tailor the game so that it spoke to women as well as men. Furthermore, the author did not explain how simply not being the playable character for most of the game means that Ellie is subordinate to Joel.

It also sounds like the author is baiting us.