The old belt (Parents using violence to correct you)

[AlexNora]

The old adage of "spare the rod, spoil the child" applies here.

Most children don't need any physical discipline, and as such it should only ever be used as a last resort, but for a small minority of children, punishment and humiliation are the only ways that they learn to fall in line. In those special cases, if you don't give them a bit of a smack they grow up to be little shits.

In closing. Physical violence is always effective, but for most kids it's TOO effective, and they don't need it. It should only be used in special cases for kids who refuse to cooperate under any other circumstances.

I like this one too

Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die

probably.....

 

[Cobelo]

Snip

My mother died just after childbirth with my two younger siblings. I was the only female influence in their life and I played a huge role in raising them. I also have a three year old son.

So please stop lecturing me claiming I don't have enough experience. You look a bit silly saying that. You don't know anything about me.

Besides, you can argue using awful anecdotes and whatever the hell you want all day, it doesn't change the fact is that there are dozens of pieces reliable and valid scientific evidence to clearly show hitting your children doesn't work. These pieces of evidence come from virtually every Western pediatric association, ranging from Europe, the USA and Australia. The evidence is irrefutable.

An estimated 40-50% of parents never hit their children. So don't try to convince me that all parents do it and that the reason they don't is due to lack of experience. Once again, you look pretty silly saying that too.

Ah, i never said anything about inexperience. I would thank you to kindly not put words in my mouth. And i understand where you come from, a good scientific basis is nice, but i believe that personal experience is worlds away from the things you can read. And i was never convincing you that all parents do it, again putting words in my mouth. In my own personal experience i've even shown someone that didn't.

Oh, on a personal note: No scientific evidence is ever irrefutable. If you know science well, then you know that theories and studies are just that. Theories and studies. It does not prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't care how long a study is, the evidence they present can always be taken into question.

I also take offense that you called an actual true experience of mine an awful anecdote. I didn't truly mean to offend, so please don't be rude.

 

[Jonabob87]

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6974059.ece One that states the opposite, although I stick with my belief that different methods work for different children.

The problem is, that study lacks the scope of the ones I linked earlier. It's interesting, but I don't think you can take much from it. I'll take the word of:

The American Psychological Association claims that corporal punishment is violent and unnecessary, may lower self-esteem, and is liable to instill hostility and rage without reducing the undesired behavior.

The Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have both called for a complete ban on all corporal punishment, stating, "We believe it is both wrong and impracticable to seek to define acceptable forms of corporal punishment of children. Such an exercise is unjust. Hitting children is a lesson in bad behavior". And that "it is never appropriate to hit or beat children".

The Australian Psychological Society holds that physical punishment of children should not be used as it has very limited capacity to deter unwanted behavior, does not teach alternative desirable behavior, often promotes further undesirable behaviors such as defiance and attachment to "delinquent" peer groups, and encourages an acceptance of aggression and violence as acceptable responses to conflicts and problems.

A 2003 review of available research into parental punishment concluded, "Strong evidence exists that the use of physical punishment has a number of inherent risks regarding the physical and mental health and well-being of children".
http://www.jpedhc.org/article/S0891-5245%2802%2988318-3/abstract

A 2008 study published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine found that mothers who reported spanking their children were more likely (6% vs 2%) to also report using forms of punishment considered abusive to the researchers "such as beating, burning, kicking, hitting with an object somewhere other than the buttocks, or shaking a child less than 2 years old" than mothers who did not report spanking, and increases in the frequency of spanking were statistically correlated with increased odds of abuse.
http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/S0749-3797%2808%2900600-4/abstract

Stronger than I take the word of one person.

Sorry.

As is your right, just don't act superior because your feelings on the matter or different from the feelings of others. As if anyone who has at some point smacked their child is some sort of domestic abuser. I wont act superior because I think children of parents who don't discipline them are little arseholes.

I didn't read that, but I'm sure it must be interesting as hell. I'll point out one thing though, you spoke about anecdotal evidence as if it was meaningless:

"Besides, you can argue using awful anecdotes and whatever the hell you want all day"

Like it or not, these studies are just lots of anecdotal evidence stacked and then written down in statistics. So if 50 people say "My experience in life is that smacking children lightly makes them behave better" it isn't any less meaningful than if 50 people took part in a study that said the opposite.

 

[Gitty101]

To be honest, it's hard to see your viewpoint when most of the youths in my area could use a good beating or two. Without any implications for misbehaviour (not all people care if they are being yelled at and some ignore restrictions placed on them) they become the most arrogant, entitled little shits on the block.

 

[SillyBear]

Snip

My mother died just after childbirth with my two younger siblings. I was the only female influence in their life and I played a huge role in raising them. I also have a three year old son.

So please stop lecturing me claiming I don't have enough experience. You look a bit silly saying that. You don't know anything about me.

Besides, you can argue using awful anecdotes and whatever the hell you want all day, it doesn't change the fact is that there are dozens of pieces reliable and valid scientific evidence to clearly show hitting your children doesn't work. These pieces of evidence come from virtually every Western pediatric association, ranging from Europe, the USA and Australia. The evidence is irrefutable.

An estimated 40-50% of parents never hit their children. So don't try to convince me that all parents do it and that the reason they don't is due to lack of experience. Once again, you look pretty silly saying that too.

Ah, i never said anything about inexperience. I would thank you to kindly not put words in my mouth. And i understand where you come from, a good scientific basis is nice, but i believe that personal experience is worlds away from the things you can read. And i was never convincing you that all parents do it, again putting words in my mouth. In my own personal experience i've even shown someone that didn't.

Oh, on a personal note: No scientific evidence is ever irrefutable. If you know science well, then you know that theories and studies are just that. Theories and studies. It does not prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't care how long a study is, the evidence they present can always be taken into question.

I also take offense that you called an actual true experience of mine an awful anecdote. I didn't truly mean to offend, so please don't be rude.

If you want to hold on to personal experience over scientific evidence then do so. Just admit that what you are doing is illogical and don't try to argue with someone who is actually bringing evidence to the table.

The evidence I presented did not say "IF YOU HIT YOUR CHILDREN THEY WILL TURN INTO RAPISTS" or anything, it just proves there is a direct link between hitting a child, and having them develop complications later on. If you want to take that risk, whatever, I don't care. I'm really over all of this.

And, no, don't try to act like I'm out of order. You came in all smug and started claiming I don't "have enough experience" of raising kids, despite not knowing anything about me. You then preceded to imply that you have more experience than me because you have demonic step siblings.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

This, a thousand times, this. This is real evidence, all the other side has shown in this thread so far have been personal anecdotes, that could easily be biased.

Gotta wonder about the people all but bragging about how they got beat as kids, and how they turned out just fine. I'm sure I could share a nice little dysfunctional anecdote of my own here...but I'm not going to.

 

[Saulkar]

Its quick, its effective and it works.
Not hitting your kids just turns them into spoiled little cunts who think they are invincible.
If you love your kids, beat them.

That fucked up my self esteem and my parents still regret it. I believe in physical punishment but it must be used correctly otherwise it can result in the opposite effect. If you are young and ignorant and try to get something off of a surface higher than you like a cookie jar and you end up pulling it down and breaking it your parents should explain to you why it was a bad idea and why it should not be done again. If you hit them at that age (4-8) they will not properly make the connection and it will result in most of the guilt being centered on themselves instead of their actions. If they keep doing it despite consistent warnings and increased punishment levels that do not result in physical punishment then give them a slap.

They have been told time and time again but their belief that there are no standing consequences must be corrected but this brings into play another major element. DO NOT HIT IN ANGER! If you are going to slap or spank you kid do it in a controlled manner without will to injure. If you do it in a spastic manner and in a state or anger or rage then the lesson is lost and the parent usually forgoes explaining the lesson and the child learns to fear, not respect their parents. If you fear your parents you hold their actions in negative esteem and are thus not as likely to follow by example and maldevelop as result of having rejected them subconsciously as a role model. My mom was as you put it beaten by her mom (standard stuff from back in the day) and it caused trauma that still persists to this day. Me having a learning and strong personality disorder my mom tried the tried tested and true method of beating believing it would help and while I suffered no long term damage it did nothing to aid in my development and left me with a low self esteem that made interpersonal interactions at school hard. Physical punishment should be used intelligently or nothing is gained in the end, additionally people react differently to it and long term consequences maybe the result thus guidance for punishing your kids as weird as that statement sounds should be a must.

 

[dementis]

I got spanked when I misbehaved as a kid and I came out as a hardworking and respectful adult, my sister didn't for some reason and now she's a selfish, lying, stealing and entitled *****. This shows that the form of discipline has had no negative effects on me.

 

[Fishyash]

I got spanked as a child, and I turned out as a humble and obedient person. Maybe that, or just how I deal with stuff.

Simply put, it should be used as a form of discipline if you use it, and not as an outlet of agression. I think some parents could potentially think it's the former but acctually be the latter. This can be pretty bad.

Also, it's effectiveness also comes down to how the child interprets it. It won't really work if the child doesn't acctually learn his lesson from it, hell it's likely to make it worse. It should be a last resort IMO.

 

[Saulkar]

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6974059.ece One that states the opposite, although I stick with my belief that different methods work for different children.

The problem is, that study lacks the scope of the ones I linked earlier. It's interesting, but I don't think you can take much from it. I'll take the word of:

The American Psychological Association claims that corporal punishment is violent and unnecessary, may lower self-esteem, and is liable to instill hostility and rage without reducing the undesired behavior.

The Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have both called for a complete ban on all corporal punishment, stating, "We believe it is both wrong and impracticable to seek to define acceptable forms of corporal punishment of children. Such an exercise is unjust. Hitting children is a lesson in bad behavior". And that "it is never appropriate to hit or beat children".

The Australian Psychological Society holds that physical punishment of children should not be used as it has very limited capacity to deter unwanted behavior, does not teach alternative desirable behavior, often promotes further undesirable behaviors such as defiance and attachment to "delinquent" peer groups, and encourages an acceptance of aggression and violence as acceptable responses to conflicts and problems.

A 2003 review of available research into parental punishment concluded, "Strong evidence exists that the use of physical punishment has a number of inherent risks regarding the physical and mental health and well-being of children".
http://www.jpedhc.org/article/S0891-5245%2802%2988318-3/abstract

A 2008 study published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine found that mothers who reported spanking their children were more likely (6% vs 2%) to also report using forms of punishment considered abusive to the researchers "such as beating, burning, kicking, hitting with an object somewhere other than the buttocks, or shaking a child less than 2 years old" than mothers who did not report spanking, and increases in the frequency of spanking were statistically correlated with increased odds of abuse.
http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/S0749-3797%2808%2900600-4/abstract

Stronger than I take the word of one person.

Sorry.

Personally I think physical punishment should be allowed but at the same time too many parents are ignorant and thus cannot carry it out responsibly in the end causing more harm if any good. As weird as this sounds I think their should be guides on how to punish your kids taking into account different personality types, gender, cognitive disorders, and age. The sheer difference in circumstances under which you should or should not use physical punishment is staggering as well making this a very tough topic. One major thing parents often get wrong is they hit their kids in anger and that alone can void the whole point in the punishment as your kids learn to fear you, not respect you and a monkey could tell you that, that is a very bad scenario. On that topic is there any actual guides for punishing you kids that exist that are officially recommended? You seem to have a few links and potentially knowing much more about this topic, thus might you have just what I am looking for?

 

[Thimblefoot]

My parents did things right, treated me well when I was behaving, which was most of the time, becuase if I didn't, I would get spanked,(was generally a good kid anyway) it teaches you to respect your parents, it teaches you who is boss. I am now 20 and have a great relationship with my parents.

 

[Cobelo]

snip

I will never admit to what i'm doing as illogical, because there is no way you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it IS illogical. And i have never done more than state my position. Don't try to read into what i say more than what is actually there. I gave a personal experience, does that make me better at raising children? No. However, what it does show is that every experience is different. I'll bet your child is very sweet to you.

I will be one of the first to admit that when i've been in charge of my younger siblings, i have smacked them upside the head for being A) extremely disrespectful to his/her siblings or my house, or B) purposefully causing moderate to major harm to someone or something. Will this be every person's experience? again, no. This is my position.

To make this topic a bit easier to, oh, what word am i looking for... I guess the best way for me to explain my position on the topic would be that i think it should be more focused on how much instead of at all. I've met some perfectly normal, capable people who weren't disciplined in that way as children. The point i'm trying to make here is that a suitable punishment should be given for the action that has been done.

Newton's third law states 'For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'. I can actually see the use of this in normal life as well, because I believe that the punishment for, say, drowning the family kitty, should definitely not be a stern talking to. I believe that the discipline to be given out is relative to the crime. Yes, there are times when a talk or time out are a good thing. But to me, I don't believe they should be the only thing.

That's my opinion. And that's all it needs to be, really.

 

[Jonabob87]

This, a thousand times, this. This is real evidence, all the other side has shown in this thread so far have been personal anecdotes, that could easily be biased.

Gotta wonder about the people all but bragging about how they got beat as kids, and how they turned out just fine. I'm sure I could share a nice little dysfunctional anecdote of my own here...but I'm not going to.

I didn't get smacked by my Mum as a child, but I was smacked once or twice by my Gran.

I adore my Gran and everything she stands for in my memory, yet my relationship with my Mum has been a turbulent and unhappy one.

In short, I had nothing but respect and love for the woman who had seen fit to smack me on incredibly rare occasions. However, I was a little asshole to the woman who didn't smack me.

Both sides of the coin in one person

 

[Knusper]

I am completely against it. In real life, if you do a bad thing, they take away privileges and try to rehabilitate you, in homes this needs to be done to children, whether it be disallowing them pocket money or "TV time" and then helping them understand what they did wrong.

I think it shows cowardice because when your child is 16 and does something wrong, you wouldn't dare hit them because you know they are stronger than you. I think it also shows bad parenting.

 

[Frosted89]

Most of the time when I did something wrong I got a strict talking to by either of my parents, When I really did something wrong that's when the belt came and then a strict talking to by both parents. I'm not going to say this is the way all parents should raise their kids, but it is the way my two siblings and I were raised and it worked out well for us.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I didn't get smacked by my Mum as a child, but I was smacked once or twice by my Gran.

I adore my Gran and everything she stands for in my memory, yet my relationship with my Mum has been a turbulent and unhappy one.

In short, I had nothing but respect and love for the woman who had seen fit to smack me on incredibly rare occasions. However, I was a little asshole to the woman who didn't smack me.

Both sides of the coin in one person

Okay...since you felt the need to share your anecdote, you clearly want one in return.

My dad started using a strap on me, over any petty-ass thing, when I was about four. The last time he did that was when I was fourteen; that's when the gym teacher started asking questions.

However, he kept right on backhanding me. The last time he did that was when I was seventeen; that's when I gave him a taste of his own goddamn medicine.

And as for what effect this had on me? I was generally an angry kid, didn't trust adults, and spent a lot of time plotting vengeance. So yeah. Anecdotes mean jack.

 

[Jonabob87]

I didn't get smacked by my Mum as a child, but I was smacked once or twice by my Gran.

I adore my Gran and everything she stands for in my memory, yet my relationship with my Mum has been a turbulent and unhappy one.

In short, I had nothing but respect and love for the woman who had seen fit to smack me on incredibly rare occasions. However, I was a little asshole to the woman who didn't smack me.

Both sides of the coin in one person

Okay...since you felt the need to share your anecdote, you clearly want one in return.

My dad started using a strap on me, over any petty-ass thing, when I was about four. The last time he did that was when I was fourteen; that's when the gym teacher started asking questions.

However, he kept right on backhanding me. The last time he did that was when I was seventeen. It was the last time because that's when I gave him a taste of his own goddamn medicine.

And as for what effect this had on me? I was generally an angry kid, and didn't trust adults. So yeah. Anecdotes mean jack.

Considering I've been talking about how moderate physical punishment works on SOME children, your anecdote really says nothing about my argument. It's awful how your father treated you, but does it really have any bearing on what effect light spanking has an some children?

 

[Kreett]

Raise your kids right and you wont need to hit them
Also in my sixteen years so far my parents have yelled at me once
and despite being without a weekly beating i turned out ok

oh and if you have to yell and beat your kids its your fault not theirs

 

[silver wolf009]

When it comes down to it, the only thing to keep someone from doing something is pain. Pain is the only thing that will always hold weight in behavior modification. We have police, to ensure that those who violate the law are given pain, be it physical or some other form. Children need to learn that they are not always right, and sometimes pain is the only way to get that across. I support it, becuase sometimes it is the only thing that works.