The Stigma of Role-Playing Must Die!
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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Haha hell yeah. It's silly, but I still get a kick out of the idea that a Hollywood action-hero like Vin Diesel is a bigger D&D-geek fan than I am.Daveman said:
Well there's your problem. Drop your liberal friends and get some libertarian friends (i.e. smart people). People act as if the moniker "liberal" immediately means open-minded when the reality is it's just closed-mindedness in a different way than "conservatives."
I would like to see the games marketed a bit better. Here in Aus, there's hardly anywhere for me to buy the books and materials, and the places that do exist are the stereotypical loft/basement style places, usually with very little to distinguish them as being a shop at all.
One place is upstairs, in a loft, the entrance to which is at the back of an employee carpark for a Dimmeys (cheap stuff) store.
We also need to get people into it at a younger age, though I recall WotC starting that recently with a kids version of DnD.
One place is upstairs, in a loft, the entrance to which is at the back of an employee carpark for a Dimmeys (cheap stuff) store.
We also need to get people into it at a younger age, though I recall WotC starting that recently with a kids version of DnD.
Yeah, I have some friends (mostly girls) who stigmatize D&D, still I have other friends who are curious about it. I sometimes run one-shots for them (Sadly I am too busy with my ongoing campaign to get another one running.). Playing D&D with new players is great and I would love too show the hobby to my more judgemental friends. A lot of them already do some things that come close to RPG-ing, but the step to D&D is too big for them to take. Pity.
Probably, at a certain moment, a person will ask why that fighter hits that monster on a lower roll than the wizard. At that moment give that person a simplified character sheet. While before that moment you were doing the math of adding and subtracting, now that new player can see what was influencing his rolls. Other players will not want to be left behind and start asking about their sheets. Once given, they will compare stats, they will see the mechanics. Ofcourse, this may or may not work or incite the spark of rpg-ing. You also need a DM who is comfortable with dealing with a lot of information at the same time.
Just three things:
-Simplified character sheets. Just the bare bones.
-Teach them that rolling high on a d20 means you're more likely to succeed in a task, it's the only thing they need to know.
-Only give them information on the rules when they ask for it, or when it's relevant ( Don't give it all in one overflow of information in the beginning, slowly layer it throughout the game. Combat starts, explain about initiative. When someone wants to hit something, explain about attack and damage rolls. Etc.)
This works (at least in my cases) for introductory one-shots. After this you can show them the rules so they can create characters on their own.
Yeah, the rules. How to handle it? Simple. Don't give them rules. Start playing directly. Slowly introduce things as attack rolls, saves, skill checks (you might even eliminate skills and saves, making them ability checks instead) during play. Don't use terms, just ask to roll that funny die. They will grasp the concept of throwing a d20 to succeed in something fairly quick.ReverseEngineered said:
Probably, at a certain moment, a person will ask why that fighter hits that monster on a lower roll than the wizard. At that moment give that person a simplified character sheet. While before that moment you were doing the math of adding and subtracting, now that new player can see what was influencing his rolls. Other players will not want to be left behind and start asking about their sheets. Once given, they will compare stats, they will see the mechanics. Ofcourse, this may or may not work or incite the spark of rpg-ing. You also need a DM who is comfortable with dealing with a lot of information at the same time.
Just three things:
-Simplified character sheets. Just the bare bones.
-Teach them that rolling high on a d20 means you're more likely to succeed in a task, it's the only thing they need to know.
-Only give them information on the rules when they ask for it, or when it's relevant ( Don't give it all in one overflow of information in the beginning, slowly layer it throughout the game. Combat starts, explain about initiative. When someone wants to hit something, explain about attack and damage rolls. Etc.)
This works (at least in my cases) for introductory one-shots. After this you can show them the rules so they can create characters on their own.
I never really had this problem. Whether that's because I care little for people's perception of my hobby or because my group has only had eight member changes in six years, the stigma against tabletop gaming didn't affect me. I certainly don't advertise that I pretend to be Eliras Dawnstrider, Cleric of Pelor on the weekends, but I don't hide it.
The 'stigma' is really self-perpetuating, as has already been said. People who play tabletop games treat it like some kind of social sin, and so it's accepted as such. I'll tell anyone who asks that I play DnD, and if they think that's a problem, well, whatever. Hell, I played an adventure in the cafeteria yesterday in between classes. We didn't get any flack, we actually had a few people ask if they could teach us how to play.
I think that this problem is fading.
The 'stigma' is really self-perpetuating, as has already been said. People who play tabletop games treat it like some kind of social sin, and so it's accepted as such. I'll tell anyone who asks that I play DnD, and if they think that's a problem, well, whatever. Hell, I played an adventure in the cafeteria yesterday in between classes. We didn't get any flack, we actually had a few people ask if they could teach us how to play.
I think that this problem is fading.
Interesting article. On the point of a barrier being raised between gamers and non-gamers, I have a bit of a theory on why this happens. Bear with me on this.
I don't table top. I would like to. Some day. But nobody around me is interested, and I don't know anybody who I would trust being a DM. I live in a small rural town, and can't drive(the nearest city is 40 minutes by car).
I do play a lot of video games though. And I spend a lot of time on the internet, reaserching into various topics that interest me, all of them considerably 'nerdy'.
But now that you see where I am coming from, back to my point: why do we, as gamers, put up a barrier to protect us from non gamers? I think it is simple: We were here first.
To put that in perspective:
I started playing video games when I was six(I'm in Highschool now) or something like that. I was damn young. My first consol was an N64, so back in the 90's. Back when gaming wasn't exactly mainstream.
Now, before something is mainstream, people get make fun of for enjoying it. Take, for example, your wife, who called you out on wanting to play D&D. It's other people who raise the barrier first, making gamers outcasts. But then once something becomes popular, all these people who used to call you out for it suddenly want a slice of the pie, and all you can really say is "fuck off, I was here before it was 'cool'."
For example, I know a bunch of "cool" kids who sit and talk about COD every morning. And I can really say is "Really? Really? You assholes chirp people for this shit like what? Five years ago? Go fuck yourself". Of course, I never really say that, because I don't want to get my ass kicked.
I guess what I'm saying is that when it is a fringe hobby, the barrier is put in place. When it is mainstream, the grudge holds, and the barrier (trys) to stay up.
Then the other half of it is that it is not fair. I know this guy, who on the surface, seems like a "popular" person. He dates the hot girls, he acts dumb, ect. Then I come to find out, last semester that is, that he collects the Games Workshop LotR minatures. Or he used to. This kind of pissed me off. I get constantly shot down by girls, so I come to terms with it by taking up nerdy hobbies. But if all these people getting laid start taking up the hobbies, and still get the girls, then where am I?
Btw, people say I'm funny, and I try to do the right thing, and I shower everyday. I'm not a loser is the point I'm making.
I don't table top. I would like to. Some day. But nobody around me is interested, and I don't know anybody who I would trust being a DM. I live in a small rural town, and can't drive(the nearest city is 40 minutes by car).
I do play a lot of video games though. And I spend a lot of time on the internet, reaserching into various topics that interest me, all of them considerably 'nerdy'.
But now that you see where I am coming from, back to my point: why do we, as gamers, put up a barrier to protect us from non gamers? I think it is simple: We were here first.
To put that in perspective:
I started playing video games when I was six(I'm in Highschool now) or something like that. I was damn young. My first consol was an N64, so back in the 90's. Back when gaming wasn't exactly mainstream.
Now, before something is mainstream, people get make fun of for enjoying it. Take, for example, your wife, who called you out on wanting to play D&D. It's other people who raise the barrier first, making gamers outcasts. But then once something becomes popular, all these people who used to call you out for it suddenly want a slice of the pie, and all you can really say is "fuck off, I was here before it was 'cool'."
For example, I know a bunch of "cool" kids who sit and talk about COD every morning. And I can really say is "Really? Really? You assholes chirp people for this shit like what? Five years ago? Go fuck yourself". Of course, I never really say that, because I don't want to get my ass kicked.
I guess what I'm saying is that when it is a fringe hobby, the barrier is put in place. When it is mainstream, the grudge holds, and the barrier (trys) to stay up.
Then the other half of it is that it is not fair. I know this guy, who on the surface, seems like a "popular" person. He dates the hot girls, he acts dumb, ect. Then I come to find out, last semester that is, that he collects the Games Workshop LotR minatures. Or he used to. This kind of pissed me off. I get constantly shot down by girls, so I come to terms with it by taking up nerdy hobbies. But if all these people getting laid start taking up the hobbies, and still get the girls, then where am I?
Btw, people say I'm funny, and I try to do the right thing, and I shower everyday. I'm not a loser is the point I'm making.
Also, part of it is fear mongering. You always hear the stories of people killing themselves over dieing in WoW, or quitting school to play more CoC. This in tern gives more people a negative image of the games, which leads to more fear mongering.
This article hit the 'it's so True!' mark like an arrow.
An arrow fired by a 20th level fighter with master specialisation and a +5 bow.
An arrow fired by a 20th level fighter with master specialisation and a +5 bow.
sports looks kinda cool. Then I saw a game of football on T.V. and realised why I never play a game where the goal is to grab a huge sweaty dude and through him to the groundCousin_IT said:
see what I did there?
I think it must just be your area, most colleges have sponsored groups which play dnd and they are usually quite popular.
Yes, I certainly remember the D&D fear from the 1980s. Rational people were absolutely convinced that it was the Devil's tool. What sort of chemicals were on the food back then?
I totally agree with the point that the Dungeon Master is the bottleneck for the hobby. I used to work myself ragged trying to DM the games that I was hosting. The information required to do it right is overwhelming, and I can see why computers have largely taken over the task in modern gaming.
I totally agree with the point that the Dungeon Master is the bottleneck for the hobby. I used to work myself ragged trying to DM the games that I was hosting. The information required to do it right is overwhelming, and I can see why computers have largely taken over the task in modern gaming.
Well I think RPGs suffer because most gamers don't reach out to non-gamers to get them to play. Sure, not everyone will take you up on it, but some will. And I've never introduced anyone to the hobby who didn't love it. Mention it at work, mention it when you and your friends are hanging out, take your books into public places, such as libraries, game stores (you'd be surprised how many CCGers and wargamers have never tried an RPG or even really know what they are), and talk about what the game is about in simple terms.
But turn to the internet and what do you see? Gamers reveling in the status games have. Gamers who HATE games that appeal to larger audiences, almost as much as they hate the members of that larger audience themselves. New editions of games with streamlined rules being "dumbed down." Someone mentions they're thinking about starting a group of... I dunno, 7th edition Wizards and Warbeasts and gamers scoff that 7th edition is for children, WoW-tards, and people missing their frontal lobes, as has been every edition since the third. You get articles about how to play "the right way" filtered through dozens of years of experience and shaded by personal favorite systems.
Often, I've found the best way to get someone started is to let them see it as basically a complex board game. Don't talk about anything that may be difficult for them to grasp, and let them slowly slip into the game. Over time, they'll inject little flourishes into their characters, and they're hooked. Plus, it's all about finding the right game that appeals to them. Maybe D&D has no appeal at all, but Star Wars might, or a western, or a pirate game, or a modern game, or... well you get the idea.
"Fuck off, I was here first" is the exact opposite reaction of how you should react to new gamers. Some of the other posters here are saying that they haven't encountered these problems, but if you travel outside of your gamer social circle, you will. But most people aren't openly hostile unless they totally don't understand (in which case a basic explanation can go a long way to clearing up BS preconceptions).
Or my other personal favorite is when you find someone who tried it once who had a total dickhole of a GM. Miserable, power-tripper GMs are another black hole in the hobby.
tl;dr version: Gamers are oftentimes just as or more hostile to non-gamers than the reverse. Be open, be friendly, be compassionate, and stay simple to start. Remember, you had to learn once too.
But turn to the internet and what do you see? Gamers reveling in the status games have. Gamers who HATE games that appeal to larger audiences, almost as much as they hate the members of that larger audience themselves. New editions of games with streamlined rules being "dumbed down." Someone mentions they're thinking about starting a group of... I dunno, 7th edition Wizards and Warbeasts and gamers scoff that 7th edition is for children, WoW-tards, and people missing their frontal lobes, as has been every edition since the third. You get articles about how to play "the right way" filtered through dozens of years of experience and shaded by personal favorite systems.
Often, I've found the best way to get someone started is to let them see it as basically a complex board game. Don't talk about anything that may be difficult for them to grasp, and let them slowly slip into the game. Over time, they'll inject little flourishes into their characters, and they're hooked. Plus, it's all about finding the right game that appeals to them. Maybe D&D has no appeal at all, but Star Wars might, or a western, or a pirate game, or a modern game, or... well you get the idea.
"Fuck off, I was here first" is the exact opposite reaction of how you should react to new gamers. Some of the other posters here are saying that they haven't encountered these problems, but if you travel outside of your gamer social circle, you will. But most people aren't openly hostile unless they totally don't understand (in which case a basic explanation can go a long way to clearing up BS preconceptions).
Or my other personal favorite is when you find someone who tried it once who had a total dickhole of a GM. Miserable, power-tripper GMs are another black hole in the hobby.
tl;dr version: Gamers are oftentimes just as or more hostile to non-gamers than the reverse. Be open, be friendly, be compassionate, and stay simple to start. Remember, you had to learn once too.
As for playing table-top rpg games as an adult being socially unnexceptable, I think that generally it's strange for adults to be very active in gaming. Essentially, you're not allowed to have any fun once you reach a point. Of course, these games do get a bit more hate but that's because it involves your imagination which we all know adults are not allowed to have.
My friends and I just decided to start playing D&D. A few of us have previous experience (mine being a whopping 1 session) and I've been asked to DM. I have no problem reading up and trying it out.. but I don't think I count as the uninitiated... I visit the Escapist for one. For two, I consider myself a huge gamer.
Oh well. I guess it'll be the way we talk about it to others that sets the tone.
Oh well. I guess it'll be the way we talk about it to others that sets the tone.
Maybe, but all those groups flaunt their hobbies fairly publicly and don't seem to care what anyone else thinks. I'll admit the LARP groups I've belonged to often said we were doing "interactive theatre", although that was more an attempt to explain what we were doing to laypersons rather than cover our geekiness.The_root_of_all_evil said:
I used to think the original Star Wars RPG from West End Games was the perfect gateway game. The setting was a hugely popular media franchise almost everybody's at least somewhat familiar with. The rules were simple but appropriate to the feel of Star Wars. The only dice you needed were six-siders, which any newbie could grab from their Risk or Yahtzee game. And the Gamemaster section basically told you to steal from the movies if all else failed.scobie said:
On the respectability issue: I don't really think the 80s moral panic is still an issue. I mean, heavy metal had its own moral panic at about the same time, and it's practically chic now. I've also met evangelical Christians and Mormons who roleplay--even vampire LARPers.
A lot of fellow D&Ders I know got into the hobby through epic fantasy novels. For over 40 years, hundreds of authors wrote thousands of novels built on Tolkien's basic blueprint. D&D was patterned off that formula. Over the last decade or so, the Tolkien-style fantasy epic has essentially died out, replaced by urban fantasy, paranormal romance, teen wizards, alternate history, steampunk, etc. It's been almost a decade since the Lord of the Rings movies as well, and few similar epic fantasy films have followed it. WoW is one of the few major media properties keeping Tolkien-esque sword & sorcery alive. You'll find few other epic fantasy settings these days featuring elves, dwarves, orcs, or even dragons.
Even if a potential TT player is into different genres, there's not many options for them. The latest incarnations of Star Wars and Star Trek RPGs fizzled out, and no other sci-fi property really has the mass appeal to sustain a player base. In horror, the games with the most longevity are Call of Cthulhu, which requires an appreciation for the plodding prose of Lovecraft, or the World of Darkness setting. The latter, I feel, is not appealing to potential future players in the right places. I'm talking about Twilight and True Blood fans. Maybe those aren't the greatest stories ever told, but a lot of us got into Vampire: the Masquerade because of Anne Rice's mediocre novels, so who are we to judge?
Ultimately, I think the hobby has several large barriers to access, including the need to have a social group willing to make the time investment (especially the GM), the expense of the rulebooks, and the often byzantine game mechanics involved.
There has only been one answer ever in this and that is to embrace the stigma.
Personally, I cannot tell there has been different levels of stigma from 1980 when I first started playing, through college in the 90's, to now. Far more than videogames, tabletop gaming is a bold and fearless proclamation of geekdom.
If you can't accept that, then I guess go hang out in a sports bar and see how fun that is.
Personally, I cannot tell there has been different levels of stigma from 1980 when I first started playing, through college in the 90's, to now. Far more than videogames, tabletop gaming is a bold and fearless proclamation of geekdom.
If you can't accept that, then I guess go hang out in a sports bar and see how fun that is.
Its amazing what people will think when you first say the words "Dungeons and Dragons"
Hey mom, I'm interested in DnD.
Honey, I don't want you to get into that sort of thing. Didn't you hear about the guy who went crazy and killed himself because of DnD?
Fortunately for me, my dad was a tabletop gamer, so I managed to get into it.
Hey mom, I'm interested in DnD.
Honey, I don't want you to get into that sort of thing. Didn't you hear about the guy who went crazy and killed himself because of DnD?
Fortunately for me, my dad was a tabletop gamer, so I managed to get into it.