The Stigma of Role-Playing Must Die!

[Namewithheld]

Hey, my friend plays World of Darkness LARPs with the local Cam group, and he's not mocked by anyone I know other than myself, and it does not go beyond mere ribbing.

DnD has it easy, by the way. I'm trying to run an Eclipse Phase game and no one fucking wants to play it, at least not in my area.

And I think that's more because the setting confuses and scares most people I know, cause they don't even know what a transhuman is, let alone why you'd want to roleplay one...

 

[pumasuit]

We cant tell people how much it rocks. We have to show them.

 

[Tarkand]

If you think that most people already have a 3 hour+ hobby of their own an extra 3+ hours a week is a big ask. Look at it this way. I used to DM when younger. I no longer do as I train mixed martial arts 6+ hours a week, work up to 50 hours a week, am a full time father to a (nearly)2 year old boy and a full time (almost) husband. I also have to fit my videogaming in at some point.

An extra 3+ hours a week, at a time that is also compatible with 4-5 other people is a massive commitment. Then if you DM you need plenty of prep time on top.

I think you missed my point.

Don't you see the irony of claiming that 3 hours to play D&D is a huge time commitment when you do martial art training 6 hours a week? You really don't? >_>

I mean we play D&D for like 5 hours every 2 weeks... you spend more than twice of your time kicking dudes than I do rolling dices.

But I'm the one with the huge time commitment hobby somehow? /boggle.

It's time management and priorities really. If you really wanted to play D&D, you'd have the time. You've decided you'd rather do something else with your free time, which is fine... but you can't really complain about the time requirement needed for D&D when it would be your 3rd hobby - it really wouldn't matter what other hobby you'd want to pick up, you'd be strapped for time regardless, it has nothing to do with it being D&D (or other pen and paper rpg).

 

[Tarkand]

2) It's very time intensive. You don't really get together for an hour--the way you can with a videogame. Generall 3+ hours are taken up, once a week--that's a big time commitment.

How is it a big time commitment really?

You don't have poker nights with the guys?

You don't raid on WoW?

You don't watch Hockey/Basketball/Football/Soccer/whatever sport every week? Sporting event usually last 3 hours, often more if you count pre and aft shows.

Most people already invest 3hours+ a week to a given hobby.

I think the person it's a big time commitment for is the DM. And since a good DM is rare enough as it is, finding one who can devote a decent amount of time to planning and prep can be difficult. Also, getting all the books for D&D can be rather costly.

It does take more time for the DM, I'm not going to deny that.

As for the costs tho? That's another lame duck excuse really.

Most rpg can be played with only the main book, which may be a huge 50$ (or more) bible, but that's it. D&D is actually one of the more expensive pen and paper rpg to start because it requires 3 of those books.

Assuming you play 10 hours per months (which isn't all that much), that comes down to 5$ an hour for the first month. Cheaper than just about anything other than going outside and throwing rocks. Every months thereafter, the prices lowers.

You want more books? Fine, buy em. It does increase the cost, but again, assuming you spend 300$ on books (Which is a sizable book collection, no matter which game system) and plays 10 hours a month, it will have cost you 2.5$ an hour after a year... And that's only counting actual gaming time, you have to factor in the entertaining from reading the books and than all further usages of it outside of the games (prep time for a game, min-maxing characters, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if it comes close to 1$ an hour.

And again, that's for people who play once every 2 weeks. What about those who play every week? Where the hell will they find all the money to afford a 0.50$/hour hobby! Guess they'll have to sell the house.

Keep in mind that if you're playing D&D, you should logical be cutting into something else as well... you'll probably buy less videogame, spend a friday night at home with friends instead of out on the town (Which can possibly cost you an entire D&D book collection in one evening) and so forth.

 

[bjj hero]

I think you missed my point.

Don't you see the irony of claiming that 3 hours to play D&D is a huge time commitment when you do martial art training 6 hours a week? You really don't? >_>

I mean we play D&D for like 5 hours every 2 weeks... you spend more than twice of your time kicking dudes than I do rolling dices.

But I'm the one with the huge time commitment hobby somehow? /boggle.

It's time management and priorities really. If you really wanted to play D&D, you'd have the time. You've decided you'd rather do something else with your free time, which is fine... but you can't really complain about the time requirement needed for D&D when it would be your 3rd hobby - it really wouldn't matter what other hobby you'd want to pick up, you'd be strapped for time regardless, it has nothing to do with it being D&D (or other pen and paper rpg).

Guess I should roll monk... I have genuinely tried to sort out a game session last year but was stumped by no one else wanting to GM (I really dont have the time) and getting everyone to have the same 3 hours free each week. Ive heard the same said about any hobby. "I'd love to come train with you but I just dont have the time". 3 Hours in its self doesn't sound like a lot but it keeps people from doing many hobbies.

If you want it bad enough you will make the time but its a big enough barrier for those who are on the fence and are busy.

 

[Ascarus]

I playned PnP D&D as a kid and even had the luxury of having an older brother who not only enjoyed being the DM, but was also quite good it.

that said, i stopped playing when i reached my middle teens as sitting around playing lost interest for me as other hobbies began to dominate my life (soccer).

that said, i think one of the bigger reasons that PnP will not likely ever have another resurgance in popularity is due to MMORPGs. There you can almost do the exact same experience and MMOs are graphical, interactive, there is a community, you develop an attachment to your avatar, the classes and mechanics are similar ...

as long as people can get the same sense of immersion while playing online (and when the game is presented in full color right in front of your face (with stereo sound), that is a lot easier), i don't think PnP will ever have the popularity it once enjoyed.

 

[Greg Tito]

I'm getting the impression that really this is just you and your friends. I'm hosting a D&D game with my friends, and my dad has been tabletop gaming for 20 years. It is in fact how he met my mother. If your friends aren't supportive of a particular hobby, maybe it isn't society or some grand conspiracy, maybe it is just your friends. I live in Kentucky for crying out loud, and neither me nor any of my friends or relatives have run into this.

I think this is just you.

2nd theory: New Yorkers are pricks (though this comes mostly from personal experience).

I see your point and I thought it was that, too. New Yorkers aren't exactly how they are stereotyped, and are usually quite open to new things. So I thought it was just my friends.

But it wasn't. It was almost every single person that I spoke to at my job, on the subway or at parties. Even the actors and theater people I hung out with were anti-D&D.

Funnily enough, the one place that I didn't expect to be understood was on my amateur basketball team that consisted of financial guys and marketing schlubs. Most of them showed up in a suit & tie before changing into sneakers and shorts.

I couldn't make a game, and when I was asked why, I said that I had D&D scheduled that night. The captain of the team just shrugged and said, "That's cool, I played through Baldur's Gate on the PC with a whole bunch of buddies across the country. That was a lot of fun."

 

[Atmos Duality]

How is it a big time commitment really?

You don't have poker nights with the guys?

You don't raid on WoW?

You don't watch Hockey/Basketball/Football/Soccer/whatever sport every week? Sporting event usually last 3 hours, often more if you count pre and aft shows.

Most people already invest 3hours+ a week to a given hobby.

Unless you are running strictly from a sourcebook, making your own encounters and plot can be extremely time consuming, and the time commitment increases exponentially with the number of players. For every hour in game, I tend to spend another hour out of game in prep work (usually filling in the gaps of my regular work day typing out stuff).

That rule applies to any system I've ever run. ANY. Even the one I've created from scratch.

As for the stigma of RP...the article hit the same issues I've always wondered.
Such as the contradiction between acting being acceptable and RP not...it's the same exact thing! It's audience participation! I've been to real shows that pull that stunt!

In fact, in writing most of my plot, encounters, and characters, I often feel more like the world's worst playwright getting ready to show with some of the worst actors ever.
But it's all in good fun!

 

[Cowabungaa]

But...but...but...I like the idea of belonging to such a close-knit group of enthusiasts constantly beleaguered by the angry outside world.

Let us stand strong together! We don't need society's approval! This stigmata bonds the ones who are wiser, let us rejoice our awesomeness!

 

[Booze Zombie]

Sigh, to this day, people still make fun of D&D, I don't really get it.
It's like saying playing Monopoly makes you into Bill Gates.

 

[Tarrker]

Greg is so right here. I remember playing D&D years ago on a regular basis with my friends. Even after we all got girlfriends it just meant that there was another player there once a week. But after a while two moved away and the remaining members just didn't seem to have the time anymore. Now, ten years later, I goto game stores looking for a group to join and I always seem to get the same response. They either tell me that I need to be a "regular" or laugh me out because I don't understand these crazy new rules. First off, I'm not really sure what makes you a "regular", exactly. I go to these shops several times a week and spend LOADS of money on cards, etc. Secondly; is it just me or does the newer D&D just have an absurd amount of rules? I suppose it wouldn't seem like so much if I could maybe play it once or twice but this new generation of gamers is just obnoxious. ALWAYS too happy to prove you wrong about the simplest of things and angry at you for being wrong. These are the same guys that cry and moan about table top gamers have a bad reputation. Gee, I wonder why THAT could be?

 

[Woodsey]

"Videogames are everywhere; they have reached the mainstream. Once a fringe activity, thanks to the Wii, World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2."

I'd actually disagree with that - WoW certainly isn't mainstream, and the only things in gaming that are are the Wii, MW2 and Fifa/PES.

[small]No, I don't count anything like Farmville as gaming, nor do the people that play Farmville.[/small]

 

[Korhal]

Secondly; is it just me or does the newer D&D just have an absurd amount of rules? I suppose it wouldn't seem like so much if I could maybe play it once or twice but this new generation of gamers is just obnoxious. ALWAYS too happy to prove you wrong about the simplest of things and angry at you for being wrong. These are the same guys that cry and moan about table top gamers have a bad reputation. Gee, I wonder why THAT could be?

More rules are, in my mind, a good thing. Rules provide consistency, and consistency provides believability and atmosphere. If your RPG is a pamphlet that basically tells me to make everything up, what did I pay you for? However, rules are flexible, so if the GM (and only the GM) wants to step outside of them and change something, that's his or her call. I'd say 4E has more rules than previous editions, sure, but it's made easier to understand because there's more consistency and the product as a whole is more streamlined.

Sounds like you know some dickhead players. They're exactly what I mention in my earlier post. Here you are, a professed gamer who wants to be involved in the hobby being shunned. As long as people like that still dominate (if not by population size than certainly by the volume they shout at) the hobby, giving the rest of us who don't act that way a bad name, it won't become acceptable. It's going to take a concerted effort by those of us who *aren't* like that to bring new players in, one by one, at least certainly for now.

 

[Tarkand]

Unless you are running strictly from a sourcebook, making your own encounters and plot can be extremely time consuming, and the time commitment increases exponentially with the number of players. For every hour in game, I tend to spend another hour out of game in prep work (usually filling in the gaps of my regular work day typing out stuff).

That rule applies to any system I've ever run. ANY. Even the one I've created from scratch.

As for the stigma of RP...the article hit the same issues I've always wondered.
Such as the contradiction between acting being acceptable and RP not...it's the same exact thing! It's audience participation! I've been to real shows that pull that stunt!

In fact, in writing most of my plot, encounters, and characters, I often feel more like the world's worst playwright getting ready to show with some of the worst actors ever.
But it's all in good fun!

TBH honest AD, if it takes you 5 hours to prep for a 5 hours game of D&D 4e, you're doing something wrong... encounter building takes a handful of minute at most. As for the plot/rp, well, that depends on the DM. I know I like to freeform a lot, so my 'notes' for the night usually consist of a few guiding lines and stuff I think would be cool if it happened.

Still, it does take more time for the DM... but that's one guy. The players have it much easier.

The point still stand tho: The time needed is only really an issue if you're trying to tack it on top of an already busy schedule. If you decided 'D&D is my hobby' instead of 'Karate (or whatever) is my Hobby', you'll find you'll have plenty of time for it... and that in fact, it's actually a lot less time consuming than many other hobbies out there.

 

[Tarkand]

Greg is so right here. I remember playing D&D years ago on a regular basis with my friends. Even after we all got girlfriends it just meant that there was another player there once a week. But after a while two moved away and the remaining members just didn't seem to have the time anymore. Now, ten years later, I goto game stores looking for a group to join and I always seem to get the same response. They either tell me that I need to be a "regular" or laugh me out because I don't understand these crazy new rules. First off, I'm not really sure what makes you a "regular", exactly. I go to these shops several times a week and spend LOADS of money on cards, etc. Secondly; is it just me or does the newer D&D just have an absurd amount of rules? I suppose it wouldn't seem like so much if I could maybe play it once or twice but this new generation of gamers is just obnoxious. ALWAYS too happy to prove you wrong about the simplest of things and angry at you for being wrong. These are the same guys that cry and moan about table top gamers have a bad reputation. Gee, I wonder why THAT could be?

Nothing I can say about the players being asshats... but I can assure you D&D 4e is actually the most streamlined and simple version of D&D since... well, ever. One of the battle horse of older players who hate this new edition is how simple it is.

 

[Stillve]

Man, one of these days I'm going to get some mates together and play D&D.
It's a game that needs to be played, and I'm flustered that I've never tried it before.

 

[snow]

This is the same reason why I go off on elitists who make fun of those who are either new to gaming or new to a game itself...

Why shun some one for being new? Why provoke them to not play the game? If you love the game so much, why chase away some one who has the potential of being a welcomed member of the community?

There is a difference between a new player, and a noob... People seem to forget that, and I for one feel that only Noobs make fun of new players...

Anyone that takes the time to chase people away from a community that I happen to be a part of, don't belong in that community... I'd rather have a group full of new people who are still learning the game and are curious as to how they can get better, than I would have a group of people who are good at the game but shun everyone else because they think their gods...

Reminds me of some of the arguments I've proposed in my old clan in CoD4 as a recruiter... They sometimes saw me as jumping around on the spectrum, recruiting those who were good at the game while at the same time recruiting those that were god awful at it... The thing is.. Those who I recruited that were good at the game, had to show they were acceptable not only in game but as a player... Those that were horrible at the game, had to show that they were willing to learn more about the game in order to succeed in game.

I've found that recruiting and training those new players turned them into some of the best players I've had in the clan. While the most people that got the boot from the clan were those who looked down upon others or voiced their opinions on the matter in selfish or otherwise rude ways.

Yes, I know... Why is this idiot talking about CoD4 in a D&D thread? Well... I have yet to play D&D, and would love to give it a go, but I feel that the issues brought up in the OP aren't just stigma's for D&D but for gaming communities everywhere... There's always that one idiot who would rather chase away potential additions to the community rather than take time to show them the ropes... That is wrong...

 

[Fensfield]

I pretty much agree with the article at large, really.. although I think 'gamer pride' is something of a defence mechanism against the general media hostility (not that someone doesn't have to stop the vicious circle, and it's better the ones with the moral high ground).

But that said, what the article really makes me wonder, is how the /hell/ did tabletop gaming survive the late 80's at all? It took such a storm of trouble from so many different angles, at a time when it had zero means of defending itself..

I think we're rather lucky to at least not be picking up the pieces of a shattered and irreparably degraded hobby, let alone free of any social stigma.

 

[Ciran]

The only problem that I have your article, and admittedly it's a big one, is that I see a lot of the similar stigma (i.e. shirts, other accessories, the elitism, etc.) in a lot of video-game circles as well. The one thing video-games have that table top roleplaying doesn't is casual gaming and gaming that is little kid friendly, and honestly I think this is a good thing, at least on the casual gaming subject. I mean, I don't think that casual gamers would consider them part of the video-gaming community and I think some of the schism is still there because of that, and I think that you would have the same problem with DnD.
Now as for a kid friendly version of DnD or any tabletop game, well maybe that might not be such a bad thing. Dumbing it down to the point where little kids could have fun slaying dragons and saving the village might be a good way to point out that you don't need to have dark, convoluted, plots and incredibly evil villains to have a fun time with roleplaying.

 

[Not-here-anymore]

Some way to play these games without actually meeting in person would be a good start. Some sort of webcam-group would be nice.

The way to get around that is in fact one of the biggest obstacles to tabletop RPG's - they're called MMORPG's, and have much the same social stigma attached to them.

I don't currently engage in tabletop RPG's (I intend to start after exams this year), but I don't know a single person who doesn't play them that doesn't consider them the nerdiest, most socially ostracising thing they can think of (and most of the people I hang around with are studying for physics, engineering, or maths degrees).
Video games are having the same barriers erected around them, though - you need look no further than the escapist's forums to find a backlash against 'casual games' and games becoming easier/more accessible. Surely anyone should be entitled to take up a hobby, free of ostracism by those outside the hobby, and sneering from those already involved?