Understanding Dark Souls difficulty

[zinho73]

*snip

Imagine a beautiful girl that is pretty hard to get. The difficulty is not the girl - what you want is the girl but the difficulty would make a stolen kiss an even more rewarding accomplishment.

See, but that's my point.

The kiss and the girl are still desirable things. the success of overcoming the challenge is just a perk.

If she wasn't hard to get you'd still want/enjoy the kiss.

In retrospect, that may have been a bad analogy, because "easy girls" comes with a lot of negative connotations that "easy games" does not.

Additionally, there's the issue of objectifying the girl in question so you're only getting the kiss to bolster your own ego.... and I'm over thinking this now.

Anyway you get the idea. Girl is still pretty, and kiss is still desirable/enjoyable even if you don't need to work for it.


Kissing booth, anyone?

Yeah, objectifying and bad connotations aside, the interesting about Dark Souls is that the girl isn't really difficult, it just appears so because she was intelligent and not superficial and... OK! I will just stop, this analogy is getting the point across but is getting worse by the minute...

 

[CrazyBlaze]

I just wish it was clearer on explaining stuff. Like the Stat bonus. Why not just tell me how much it adds to the damage the weapon does already. Why add a grade when grade b for one weapon and grade b for another one give different bonuses. Why not just tell me it adds 25 physical and 13 magic.

 

[zinho73]

Understanding Dark Souls difficulty:

Those who play, and succeed in the series, don't want anyone else to join their 'club'.

*shrugs

I'd go back to the series if it had an 'easier' mode. Played both, beat a few bosses, then bailed at the frustration. I'm a quitter. Heaven forbid we get 'a different game' that doesn't change anything at all of what the 'true fans' like.

It's not that I clamoring for one mind you, but I would like it.

I would not deny that many people are attracted to the "status" of beating a difficult game.

But to me the major issue that plays a part here is the challenge: can I do it? Can I beat Capra on the first try? Can I kill the Dragon on the bridge? Can I turn this apparently impossible situation into an easy thing?

An easy mode makes people stopping asking those kind of questions. With some many games playing that part already, I'm glad that at least a few are still challenging players.

You are not into it and I get it. That's why I don't play some fighters even in easy mode.

As I said, I really am the guy that goes unashamedly for the easy mode in games, but thinking that every game should have that option because I want to see the final cutscene is simply not the way to go. It is selfish and limiting for us and for the videogame industry.

 

[Burst6]

I still say the game should have more save points. If I've already proven I can get passed an area, being forced to go through it again is not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure.

I don't understand this argument. You don't have to fight all the enemies again. If you go through and learn where everything is, open all the door and shortcuts, and try to take out all the enemies that stay dead, you can just sprint past everything. That's what i do.

Take the tomb of giants for example. The bonfire is pretty far away from the boss. In between you there are a lot of powerful skeleton demons. Normally it would take forever to kill them all, but i just sprint past them. It takes half a minute for me to get to the boss, and i'm usually left with full health and flasks. See, that's an example of dark souls being about information. The devs want you to use everything to your advantage to win, as long as its not an obvious cheat.

I applaud what Dark Souls is doing, but I think, sometimes, people are holding on to the wrong things.

Furthermore, if you say that Dark Souls is all about the difficulty, and sacrificing that would diminish it, then you can't really praise the story, setting, etc. (not saying you would, just for instance).

The desire for an "easier" mode is rooted in an urge to see that rest of the game without the difficulty. If you claim that shouldn't be done, then you're insinuating that those things are without value. Only the difficulty is noteworthy.

The difficulty is the core of the game. Look at the combat. Look at all the details it has. All the accurate hitboxes, all the precise moves, the parrying system. They're all made to be as accurate as possible and everything has a reason. Without the difficulty combat is boring. All those fancy tricks become as useful as learning that you can spin the revolver in metal gear solid 3. Why would that scimitar backflip attack ever be useful if you can just spam r1 without risk.

The story and setting would suffer from reducing difficulty too. I don't know about you but when a game is trying to have a bleak world with powerful and dangerous monsters roaming around, i start feeling that the game is a bit off message when i can cut through them with a dull sword without much trouble.

The reason i don't want easy mode is because it will be crap. No people shouldn't have the option, because no one really knows if they'll like something or not if they don't give it a chance. People who would have liked the normal gameplay would go for the easy mode, learn that it's horrible, and then just leave the game behind. Sometimes games are modular and let you change them to suit your tastes, sometimes games are rigid and change your tastes. There's not nearly enough of the second kind of game. So many people on the escapist talk about how a lot of games are derivative and try to please too many people sacrificing quality, but when a game comes up that they don't like for some reason but want to, they say that it should be more derivative and who cares about the quality.

 

[Krantos]

The difficulty is the core of the game.

This is the important part, and that's the viewpoint I was addressing.

To you the game is nothing without the difficulty. That means the story, setting, etc. are meaningless (or at least massively diminished) without the difficulty. Fair enough.

Just be aware that some people disagree. Some people think the game has more to offer.

That's really all I was saying.

 

[Ryotknife]

snip

I have been watching livestreams of dark souls, and it does not require lateral thinking, observation, or experimentation (that is the most laughable of the 4). Patience, yes (personally i would say caution rather than patience). The combat is extremely linear and dull. You get two abilities that you use for most of the game, and that is it.

the entire combat system is based upon block and a single basic attack.

Now, if you were talking about...say...Ys: origins i would agree. Give a DMC boss the same health and damage potential as a dark soul boss and the DMC boss will be expotentially harder than any boss in dark or demon soul.

I do not mind difficulty (or dying), I play some games with a high learning curve, and it is why i enjoyed raiding in wow for so long. But the game still has to be fun, which demon/dark souls is not (to me).

 

[lord.jeff]

I didn't find the game that hard the only times I died with the exception of bosses I felt cheated, I died mostly against traps and a few times against that one hit kill guy, the regular combat was easy as long as you had any basic timing skills, and every time I died I had to do most of the level over which was just annoying. But to address the issue at hand if you don't like easy modes don't use them it's an option Devil May Cry had an easy and the challenge of Dante Must Die was not ruined by it existing.

 

[StriderShinryu]

So many people on the escapist talk about how a lot of games are derivative and try to please too many people sacrificing quality, but when a game comes up that they don't like for some reason but want to, they say that it should be more derivative and who cares about the quality.

This ^^^

If games are truly anything approaching artistic, or are anything akin to any other artistic or entertainment medium, it is extremely important to consider and respect the vision of the person/people who created it. War and Peace doesn't have an easy mode or hard mode, it simply exists in the way that Tolstoy wrote it. The Mona Lisa doesn't have an easy mode or hard mode, it simply exists as Da Vinci painted it. Etc. Some people will not like War and Peace. Some people will not be moved by the Mona Lisa. While I wouldn't necessarily endeavour to call Dark Souls the same as the Mona Lisa or War and Peace, it is still a piece of work that exists as intended by it's creators. It's meant to be hard. It's meant to reward a specific type of play and a specific type of player. It's not meant to be a game that everyone who picks up the controller can enjoy and/or finish. And that's okay.

As Burst says above, it seems like gamers, not just here on the Escapist but everywhere as of late are constantly pointing out examples of developers and publishers "selling out" by changing their games to be simpler and more palatable to every player who picks up the controller. Appealing to the dreaded "casuals" or being nothing but easy gameplay and pretty cutscene marathons. Now, in the face of a game/series that has a very defined identity and experience, they're complaining because the game isn't being altered to suit them.

 

[Smeggs]

Unless they plan to make the easy mode into "Puss Mode," I'm all for it, because It'll be all the sweeter when all of the unskilled nooblords get ganked for the fifth time by some random asshole spammig backstabs with full giant.

 

[piinyouri]

Unless they plan to make the easy mode into "Puss Mode," I'm all for it, because It'll be all the sweeter when all of the unskilled nooblords get ganked for the fifth time by some random asshole spammig backstabs with full giant.

So World of Warcraft is pretty difficult huh?

 

[lapan]

I still say the game should have more save points. If I've already proven I can get passed an area, being forced to go through it again is not going to do anything but raise my blood pressure.

More Lordvessel points, at least. All bonfires should be able to be teleported to, that alone would save a lot of aggravation.

PtD intruduced a lot of new warp points. And every bonfire in the DLC is a warp point as well.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

Also, on a personal note: if the game had an easy mode I would probably have succumbed to it, robbing myself of the true experience of the game.

MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD!

On the very first boss, on the undead asylum, I simply did not understand what I had to do and died numerous times until I finally beat the thing with the hilt sword. I thought to myself: "My god, this game is insanely difficult, this is going to be impossible to play".

My second breaking point was the Capra Demon, which I fought without resins and with an unupgraded weapon. This kind of suffering is crucial to a later part in the game when you see 12 of those guys waiting for you (and you destroy them).

If you do not want to discover those things for yourself, you can always look at youtube to see the tricks to each boss and there you have your easy mode. If you cannot execute the tricks you see on youtube than this is really not the game for you (but a lot of other games would not be either).

You're not actually meant to beat the Asylum Demon with the broken sword hilt. You're meant to get your gear from the rest of the Asylum (along with the Estus Flask) before you fight it. How did you survive the rest of the game at all?

 

[Kitten DeLux]

Ha yeah reduce the difficulty. That's like telling ferrari to make a low performance car.

 

[zinho73]

Also, on a personal note: if the game had an easy mode I would probably have succumbed to it, robbing myself of the true experience of the game.

MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD!

On the very first boss, on the undead asylum, I simply did not understand what I had to do and died numerous times until I finally beat the thing with the hilt sword. I thought to myself: "My god, this game is insanely difficult, this is going to be impossible to play".

My second breaking point was the Capra Demon, which I fought without resins and with an unupgraded weapon. This kind of suffering is crucial to a later part in the game when you see 12 of those guys waiting for you (and you destroy them).

If you do not want to discover those things for yourself, you can always look at youtube to see the tricks to each boss and there you have your easy mode. If you cannot execute the tricks you see on youtube than this is really not the game for you (but a lot of other games would not be either).

You're not actually meant to beat the Asylum Demon with the broken sword hilt. You're meant to get your gear from the rest of the Asylum (along with the Estus Flask) before you fight it. How did you survive the rest of the game at all?

Now I know, man. Now I know...

But strangely enough I pretty much got smarter really quick after that. Noticing the door later made me think that I should approach things differently and the game just "clicked".

 

[zinho73]

snip

I have been watching livestreams of dark souls, and it does not require lateral thinking, observation, or experimentation (that is the most laughable of the 4). Patience, yes (personally i would say caution rather than patience). The combat is extremely linear and dull. You get two abilities that you use for most of the game, and that is it.

the entire combat system is based upon block and a single basic attack.

Now, if you were talking about...say...Ys: origins i would agree. Give a DMC boss the same health and damage potential as a dark soul boss and the DMC boss will be expotentially harder than any boss in dark or demon soul.

I do not mind difficulty (or dying), I play some games with a high learning curve, and it is why i enjoyed raiding in wow for so long. But the game still has to be fun, which demon/dark souls is not (to me).

Fair enough, but let me defend my point of view.

Lateral thinking is quite useful throughout the game, as you can constantly find unusual ways to solve problems like skipping enemies, bating bosses to kill themselves and making invisible enemies "visible" through clever use of items.

Observation is simply the basis to advance in the game: there are hidden passages, hidden enemies and a lot of visual and aural clues that foreshadows most traps.

Experimentation is also key as there are a lot of things that are impossible to infer unless you've seen them in a guide or on youtube before. Bosses weaknesses, which type of enemy can be backstabed or parried, drops, ring usage, weapons move sets, hidden bonuses. The list is huge.

To not die you must be not only cautious but sometimes really methodical - and both requires patience. Also, patience is key to avoid frustration after repeated deaths due to mistakes or lack of attention.

I guess you can complete the game without those skills (being just insistent and stubborn), but in that case the experience would be indeed terrible (like my first encounter with the Asylum demon).

 

[zinho73]

Also to ryotknife:

The combat system is not based on block and a single attack. You can rely on block and a single attack, but you will be much more efficient if you adapt to the situation using:
- parries
- backstabbing
- magic
- dodges
- dual wielding
- Two-handing
- drop attacks
- long range
- buffs
- dung pies
- running attacks

There are many ways to solve any problem and fight (including summoning powerful allies and doing nothing) but the game won't punish you too much if you stick to your preferences - you can complete the game using your initial equipment set and at level 1. Or you can experiment and do things in a varied way.

 

[zinho73]

The thing is, I usually never go for easy mode. Sometimes I'll up the difficulty, like in a Bethesda game. I wanted to get into Dark Souls, but gave up by the church rooftop part. An easy mode would have helped me play more. I can't think of any game that has given me the option for an easy mode, that I felt compelled to play, then was upset I did, ya know?

I get what you are saying, but the thing is that the "easy" mode is already there in Dark Souls. It is just intertwined with game mechanics instead of being a mode.

In the rooftop you can:
- evolve your weapon and armor
- use resins to buff your weapons
- summon Solaire
- summon Lautrec
- Summon Solaire AND Lautrec
- Outlevel the gargoyles
- Do some or all of the above at the same time

I think it is brilliant, but it does require patience if things are not on par with your skill level, An easy mode makes discovering all those options pointless and less rewarding.

I also cannot find an example of another game that wouldn't benefit from an easy mode. Yeah, I think Dark Souls and Demon's Souls are THAT different. The success of those games is not a coincidence.

 

[TrevHead]

Totally true about the difficulty which for the most part isn't about technical twitch skill but about how you think of different stategies to turn the battle to your avantage. I think many ppl who quit over the difficulty would put in the time to watch a gameplay video of a player who knows what he is doing and is cheesing the game would probably facepalm thinking why the hell didn't they think of that.

It's like any new type of game you have to learn how to play the game, EG a FPS noob playing an oldschool FPS like Serious Sam and they just stand in one spot trying to gun all the enemies down and not switching weapons to suit the enemy type.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Hol dona second, I have to go tell a kid with sub-standard small motor skills that the reason he can't play is because he's just not thinking it out correctly and not because his hands are physically incapable of preforming the motions. Then I think I'll tell the guy without legs that he just needs to try harder at walking. Oh what's that you say, special case? Not really, there are lots of situations where a persons apparent skill in a game varies greatly and people experience different levels of difficulty. This is just the most extreme case. Trying to universalize everyone's ability to do something is both idiotic and naive.

Also, how does adding an easy mode determent your experience. You can go play the harder mode and someone else can play the easy mode. Unless your physically incapable of preventing yourself from playing the easy mode I don't see how this hurts you. Don't give me any bullcrap about how there 'not experiencing the true game,' everyone has the right to play the game in their own way and not have some asshole dictate how they play and say they're doing it wrong.

I'm sick of people going at this like a religious crusade. I'm sick of overblown egos and fetishized worship of make-believe ideals. The people whoa argue this thing piss me off.