"Western games don't have good storys"

[mireko]

The reason most games have "bad" stories is precisely because they're games. Everything I've played that is trying to tell a more complicated story, such as the Metal Gear Solid games, are abysmally dull because so much of the game is taken up with exposition and stupid cutscenes. Also, such games tend to be linear beyond belief. I don't play video games to watch movies. I watch movies to do that. I wish gamers and critics like Bob would shut up about story in games. Tetris has zero story, and is the mos successful puzzle game, and perhaps game in general, of all time. I just want to have fun.

Well, he doesn't exactly go on about story in games. That's not his thing. He just made some ill-advised comments that started a few flame wars. Again. That's his thing.

For the record, story does not equal exposition. At the risk of sounding incredibly pretentious, every element of a modern game is in some way a part of the story. From the music to the visual design, and even the gameplay contributes to the narrative in some way, so some well-written dialogue and plotting to go along with that isn't too much to ask for, in my humble opinion.

And for fuck's sake, nobody is going to take away plotless games. Nobody. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody has ever planned on saying that. Nobody has ever pretended to say that. Nobody has ever painstakingly trained a small dog to bark anything that can be interpreted as meaning that, with or without the aid of powerful hallucinogens.

When people ask for better stories and better writing, they mean they want better stories and better writing in games that would benefit from it. These types of games can co-exist. There has never been any plan for exclusively making one over the other.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

But how many of those are touted for their stories, or how many did he say had excellent stories?

Also, Splice and machete were rather good movies, and Predators was pretty oka too.

Oh, like that. Sorry, I thought we were discussing his taste in movies.

[sub]Maybe I shouldn't lunge into conversations.[/sub]

Nah, no worries. People are just grasping at straws to make a connection and discredit him when they dont have much of an idea what they're talking about or how to argue it.

Still though (this thread pretty much derailed into a hate thread of how unqualified Bob is) wat was your problem iwth Predators, Splice, and Machete?

 

[mireko]

Snip

But how many of those are touted for their stories, or how many did he say had excellent stories?

Also, Splice and machete were rather good movies, and Predators was pretty oka too.

Oh, like that. Sorry, I thought we were discussing his taste in movies.

[sub]Maybe I shouldn't lunge into conversations.[/sub]

Nah, no worries. People are just grasping at straws to make a connection and discredit him when they dont have much of an idea what they're talking about or how to argue it.

Still though (this thread pretty much derailed into a hate thread of how unqualified Bob is) wat was your problem iwth Predators, Splice, and Machete?

It's less of a problem with them than with his glowing reviews of them. They're not terrible, but he seems to praise the hell out of movies at the drop of a hat, so it makes for a very jarring experience to watch those movies after his reviews when it turns out he's not quite right..

 

[Sabiancym]

Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins, KOTOR, uncharted, etc.


I really don't know if Eastern games have good stories. I get way too annoyed by the ridiculousness of it all to even get in to it. I HATE anime with a passion. I just want to gouge my eyes out when I see the style. Even worse is the voices and just the general style of dialog. They seem to try hard to get the dramatic English done well, but they always over do it and it comes out sounding like a really bad soap opera.


There could be some eastern game storylines that I might enjoy, but I'd never be able to suffer through the absurdness of the art and sound design.



Maybe I'm weird, but I just don't enjoy playing a pre-pubescent transexual swinging a 40 foot sword while trying to avoid a seizure from the constant particle effects.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

What I think is strange is that people will assert that a game has a "terrible story" and take for granted that it is an agreed upon point. They rarely explain what precisely makes the story bad. Consider a game commonly cited as having a bad story: Halo. What is it that makes the story bad? Here is a brief synopsis courtesy of Wikipedia:

Spoiler

The game begins as the Pillar of Autumn exits slip-space near a mysterious ring-shaped space station, called "Halo" by the enemy of the game, The Covenant.[43] A Covenant fleet attacks and heavily damages the Pillar of Autumn. Jacob Keyes initiates "The Cole Protocol",[44] a procedure designed to prevent the Covenant from learning the location of Earth. While Keyes prepares to land the ship on Halo, the Master Chief and Cortana escape via an escape pod, which crash lands on the ring. Cortana and the Chief are the only ones that survived the impact of the escape pod crash.

Keyes survives the Autumn's crash landing, but is captured by the Covenant. In the second and third levels of the game, the Master Chief and Cortana gather human survivors and rescue Captain Keyes, who is imprisoned on the Covenant ship Truth and Reconciliation. Once rescued, Keyes orders the Master Chief to beat the Covenant to Halo's control center and to discover its purpose. The Master Chief and Cortana travel to a map room called the Silent Cartographer, which leads them to the control room. There, Cortana enters the systems and, discovering something urgent, suddenly sends the Master Chief to find Captain Keyes, while she stays behind. While searching for his commander, the Master Chief learns that the Covenant have accidentally released the Flood, a parasitic alien race capable of spreading itself by overwhelming and infesting other sentient life-forms. Keyes falls victim to them while looking for a cache of weapons. The release of the Flood prompts 343 Guilty Spark to recruit the Master Chief in retrieving the Index, a device that will activate Halo and prevent the Flood from spreading beyond the facility.

After the Master Chief retrieves and begins to use the Index, Cortana re-appears and warns him against the activation. She has discovered that Halo's defense system is a weapon designed to kill all sentient life in the galaxy, which the Flood need to spread. When confronted with this information, 343 Guilty Spark states that the installation technically only has a maximum radius of twenty-five thousand light-years, but that its pulse would trigger other similar installations as well, killing all sentient life in the galaxy.

While fighting the Flood, the Covenant, and Guilty Spark's Sentinels, the Master Chief and Cortana attempt to destroy Halo before 343 Guilty Spark activates it. Cortana discovers that the best way to destroy Halo is to cause the crashed Pillar of Autumn to self-destruct. However, Captain Keyes' authorization is required to destroy the ship. By the time that they reach Keyes, he has been infected and turned into the Flood. The Master Chief retrieves Keyes' neural implants directly from his brain, and Cortana activates the Autumn's self-destruct sequence. However, 343 Guilty Spark reappears and deactivates the countdown, discovering the record of human history in the process. The Master Chief manually causes the Pillar of Autumn's fusion reactors to begin to melt down, and the Master Chief and Cortana narrowly escape the destruction of the ring via a fighter.

In what way is this story truly bad? There are two complaints that might lend general credibility to such an assertion: that the protagonist (Master Chief) is not a character but a blank slate who undergoes no character development during the course of the game and that the reason for the major conflicts in the game are often unclear. The first can hardly be considered a complaint simply because the protagonist represents the player in this case and they can simply attribute any qualities they like to him. This is an incredibly common trope in video games and we see it in Half-Life's Gordon Freeman, Dragon Age's PC, Morrowind's PC, and literally dozens of other games. The second complaint is slightly harder to dismiss. If humanity has been fighting this war for a long time it seems that they should have an idea why they are fighting it (But, as it turns out, the reason is that the Covenant want to eradicate humanity because of a secret capable of crumbling the covenant between the various aliens that make up the group. Given that humanity is not privy to this information it becomes reasonable in retrospect). The flood on the other hand does not need a justification for its action at this point for the same reason we never bother to judge the motivations of a virus.

The question is thus, what is the basis for the common presumption that Halo has a terrible story?

 

[Risingblade]

Actually, i'm quite fond of Uncharted's story.

Sure, it's kinda of an Indiana Jones-ish way of doing it and for those who watch a lot of movies it'd probably feel like it'd been seen before. Thing is... i don't watch a lot of movie, not in the particular genre at least. It's like something he's said before - that if you're not exposed to something a lot, then no matter how bland it might actually be, it's going to feel new and exciting.

It all depends on what's your particular cup of tea, and also what tea cup you're using.

Uncharted was all right and I freaking love your Ava!

 

[JoeThree]

Finally y'all are wising up. I cannot wait for Extra Credit's fall from grace.

Extra Credit is more focused on game development instead of y'know movie and shit.
Any word about video games that comes out from moviebob is 90% of the times going to be shit.

Oh no, I'm aware - I've watched them both. But when the novelty of the pseudo-intellectual rebel wears off, and he runs out of "hot topics" he'll prove to be just another flash in the pan. He either offers really stupid ideas, really unmarketable ideas, or common sense, all the while spouting "VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART. VIDEO GAMES ARE ART."

I wouldn't mind as much if the videos had a purpose, but they're no different than the ramblings of your standard college-age kid on a forum, only with an annoying voice modifier and shitty animation. Plus, he's writing to gaming companies, as if EA just checks out The Escapist every day to see if anyone who makes vlogs for a living has some amazing new marketing ideas. They're just pointless, you're either that kind of person, which means he's telling you what you already think/know, or you're someone else in which case the videos are pointless. In short, there is nothing (new) for anybody.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

But how many of those are touted for their stories, or how many did he say had excellent stories?

Also, Splice and machete were rather good movies, and Predators was pretty oka too.

Oh, like that. Sorry, I thought we were discussing his taste in movies.

[sub]Maybe I shouldn't lunge into conversations.[/sub]

Nah, no worries. People are just grasping at straws to make a connection and discredit him when they dont have much of an idea what they're talking about or how to argue it.

Still though (this thread pretty much derailed into a hate thread of how unqualified Bob is) wat was your problem iwth Predators, Splice, and Machete?

It's less of a problem with them than with his glowing reviews of them. They're not terrible, but he seems to praise the hell out of movies at the drop of a hat, so it makes for a very jarring experience to watch those movies after his reviews when it turns out he's not quite right..

he explained that in one vid, and I can relate to him (though I'm not a film critic). I used to work at a theatre during hte summer (and hope to again this summer) and we got movies in a week ahead of time, so we knew where to put it and how to organize the theatre. So the first day tehy came in, if you worked that night, we would just spend the night watching the new films (since you usually only got 2-3 at most. So we'd see it a week ahead of most common movie going people.

ANd honestly, films get boring. Splice was probably one of the more interesting and "new" movies I'd seen in its genre (though when its competition was Saw whatever and a Michael Bay Nightmare on Elm Street, thats not saying much). Machete was just good mindless fun and shock value, though there's the underlying message if you want to fish it out bout immigration I suppose (really making a message out of a movie ist just how much BSing you're prepared to do, since you can find any message out of any movie on the laws of the 7-Chain). Predators... was something that had potential.

Not to defend Bob either, or say he's always right, but what about when he says he likes movies like Up, or Toy Story 3, or says he doesnt like movies like Transoformers, or twlight? You're going to tell me the first two were great movies for what they were, while the latter two were cinema dumping garbage?

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

The reason most games have "bad" stories is precisely because they're games. Everything I've played that is trying to tell a more complicated story, such as the Metal Gear Solid games, are abysmally dull because so much of the game is taken up with exposition and stupid cutscenes. Also, such games tend to be linear beyond belief. I don't play video games to watch movies. I watch movies to do that. I wish gamers and critics like Bob would shut up about story in games. Tetris has zero story, and is the mos successful puzzle game, and perhaps game in general, of all time. I just want to have fun.

(Emphasis added.)

I hear that a lot.

But what if I find a good story to be fun?

What if I have more fun with a combination of story and gameplay then just gameplay?

There are always going to be people who share that view, so you'll be able to find games that have enough story elements to satisfy you (I hope). However, those of us who do find a good story to be a nice added element tend to have to find more niche titles, as such games generally don't sell quite as well. Also, I sometimes think the subtleties of good gameplay combined with a decent story can make the game that much better. I've been working my way through Red Dead Redemption recently and while the main storyline is nothing amazing, the atmosphere, setting, and myriad of sidequests make the game world feel amazingly rich. I personally think a complex and intelligent story can be done in a game, but I find that it tends to decrease player freedom to just explore. I realize that's perfectly fine for people in some instances, but for me personally I play video games for the chance to explore a world, pretend I'm a rock star, or whatever. It's really all about combining the elements the right way.

 

[veloper]

So don't read a bad book, but read a good one.
The point being good books > the best game stories.

That's irrelevant. You were saying that all games have bad stories.

Even if there are books with better stories than the best games, that doesn't mean those games have bad stories.

If you had said that books had better stories than games on average, then sure, but there are games with good stories, so your main argument was invalid.

Mediocre or worse.
There are no games with good stories. There are good books and good stories.
Play games for the gameplay.

In games, stories affect and are a part of the gameplay. I'm not just talking about cutscenes, you know.

Only some RPGs have made attempts in that direction and interactivity of those stories is very limited.
I see the appeal and I understand what fans of the western CRPG are looking for, but sofar the developers haven't delivered and you can't even blame them, because even a couple branches in a story are alot of work.

With most games the story really is the cutscenes in between gameplay.

In both cases the stories aren't good.

Anyway, how are you defining a good story? My definition has always been one that evokes an emotion or makes me think, and there have been many great games with excellent stories that have accomplished just that. I would not call those stories mediocre or worse, because they worked, often better than many of the movies or books I've experienced.

So, no. I still disagree. You're welcome to do the same.

I'm not even asking for Tolstoy here. CRPGs cannot even match the level of story telling of a George Martin or a Heinlein.

A good story needs a clever plot, an interesting idea (preferably a philosophy or human behaviour in a crazy new scenario) and convincing dialogue.

1 The plot in games, when they have one, typically boils down to player character overcomes many obstacles and wins.
2 Interesting new ideas in games? I'm stumped. PS:T had what can change the nature of a man, but I already granted that PS:T is the only exception.
3 So dialogue... it's a little better here. Jokes and comedy can add to a good game.
Doesn't make a good story per se, but it can be entertaining in for example Lucas Arts adventure games. Hilariously bad voice acting can also work in games like Just Cause 2: bad story, stupid fun gameplay and a couple laughs.
Then there's rare games with both serious and good acting like Bloodlines(atleast some of it). Again the story isn't good, but the atmosphere in the game is improved.

Too often though the dialogue and VO just isn't good, but is also not bad enough to be funny.
Great example of this is Dragon Age. Serious attempts, but the dialogue is written too poorly and the voice actors cannot save it either, so you get something that is just mildly embarrasing to listen to. This is the level where most modern RPGs are at.

 

[mireko]

-snip-

Not to defend Bob either, or say he's always right, but what about when he says he likes movies like Up, or Toy Story 3, or says he doesnt like movies like Transoformers, or twlight? You're going to tell me the first two were great movies for what they were, while the latter two were cinema dumping garbage?

I'm not saying he's always wrong, that would be weird. Just that he has a tendency to over-praise certain movies leading to less than desirable results.

I still watch his videos, so I don't hate the guy or anything.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

The reason most games have "bad" stories is precisely because they're games. Everything I've played that is trying to tell a more complicated story, such as the Metal Gear Solid games, are abysmally dull because so much of the game is taken up with exposition and stupid cutscenes. Also, such games tend to be linear beyond belief. I don't play video games to watch movies. I watch movies to do that. I wish gamers and critics like Bob would shut up about story in games. Tetris has zero story, and is the most successful puzzle game, and perhaps game in general, of all time. I just want to have fun.

Well, he doesn't exactly go on about story in games. That's not his thing. He just made some ill-advised comments that started a few flame wars. Again. That's his thing.

For the record, story does not equal exposition. At the risk of sounding incredibly pretentious, every element of a modern game is in some way a part of the story. From the music to the visual design, and even the gameplay contributes to the narrative in some way, so some well-written dialogue and plotting to go along with that isn't too much to ask for, in my humble opinion.

And for fuck's sake, nobody is going to take away plotless games. Nobody. Nobody has ever said that. Nobody has ever planned on saying that. Nobody has ever pretended to say that. Nobody has ever painstakingly trained a small dog to bark anything that can be interpreted as meaning that, with or without the aid of powerful hallucinogens.

When people ask for better stories and better writing, they mean they want better stories and better writing in games that would benefit from it. These types of games can co-exist. There has never been any plan for exclusively making one over the other.

First, chill. I was merely holding Tetris up as an example of how games do not need a complex setup to be immensely entertaining. That said, I do agree that many RPGs could use better writing (as I see RPGs as the genre that could most benefit from some good writing). Sure, shooters and action-adventure games could also maybe use a better story/writing, but I find the gameplay elements of such games, like controls, enemy types, etc. to be far more important to my enjoyment of these games. Painkiller's story? I have no idea, but it was awesome pinning dudes to walls with trees and all that.

Also, why is everyone getting upset by MovieBob's opinion on games? Sure, he's also The Game Overthinker or whatnot, but when his primary role on the site is movie reviewing I don't take his opinions on gaming all that seriously (not that I take his movie opinions all that seriously either).

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The thing with western games is that in them the story is a side-thing to the gameplay 99.99999% of the time.


Many Japanese games on the other hand focus on the story and use the gameplay to tell it, the gameplay is a side-thing to the story, not the other way around.


Now, there is obviously going to be hit and miss situations on either side but the undeniable truth is that when done at it's highest level, a game with focus on it's story will have a better story than a game whose main focus is on the gameplay.


Common sense people, just use your damn common sense.




Now, whether that makes for a better game, well, that's wholly irrelavant so don't talk about it in this thread!

 

[Awexsome]

There are people saying there are NO games that have a good story?

I know there are quite a few glass is half empty full folks around here but come on. What are you holding game's standards to? A good game has to be as good as something as like Citizen Kane or something?

Mass Effect is a good story. Interesting characters in interesting situations. If you only look at the bare minimum of any story of course you're gonna be able to say it sucks. Half-life: Scientist super soldier saves world. Halo: Super soldier saves universe. Mass Effect: Super soldier saves galaxy (at least I assume that will be the ending)

All games with good stories can be simplified down to however anyone wants to make it look bad. I could do it with any movie too. Wasn't there a TV tropes page for that? It's never just what the story's synopsis is on paper. It's how its told. And videogames can and have done it well.

 

[dfake]

I saw the thread, and instantly thought; Red Dead Redemption was the best game i've played in a long time, wtf are they talking about, but then I continued reading the OP... and well, my point is moot, but RDR is still an amazing game.

 

[Antidrall]

The Darkness, Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption, Grand theft auto, Assassin's Creed (the first one), and many more top my list of favorite game stories. Only 3 of the stories however, are from japan.

 

[emeraldrafael]

-snip-

Not to defend Bob either, or say he's always right, but what about when he says he likes movies like Up, or Toy Story 3, or says he doesnt like movies like Transoformers, or twlight? You're going to tell me the first two were great movies for what they were, while the latter two were cinema dumping garbage?

I'm not saying he's always wrong, that would be weird. Just that he has a tendency to over-praise certain movies leading to less than desirable results.

I still watch his videos, so I don't hate the guy or anything.

Oka then. I realize, I'm just having fun at this point. Besides, as someone just said, he is moviebob for a reason. And I take his videos with about as much severity as I do Yahtzee's or the Extra Credit crew's. They're all satirical (maybe?) and meant to be funny. Why anyone holds them as the word of God is beyond me.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

Western games DON'T have good stories...they have good english writing...which is to be expected since most western developers first language is english.

What people complain about with Japanese stories in general is either they are all the same story (see Zelda or Mario) or that the localisation, voice acting and script isn't up to scratch (see JRPGs) which is the fault of the western divisions of the company.

It's never the story itself that really gets talked about, its everything around the story.

Think about the last western game you played and think about it's story, just the basics of its story, not how it's delivered, it's a good..interesting and usually different story.