What Makes a Great Villain?
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Just curious, but why am I the only one who thinks Sovereign is a great villain?
He does the things that typical villains try to do, and actually pulls them off.
1)unexpected- he's Saren's ship, his dreadnaught. Who expects the ship itself to be the villain?
2)Backs up his threats- most villains monologue away in a rather feeble attempt to impress upon their captive audience that they're dangerous and will kill you. Usually this means a half-hearted chase after you by incompetent minions, the actual villain just standing there waiting. Sovereign chases after you himself(yes, he's a ship, and a fast one at that,but it still counts)and you just barely get out of there.
3)Has intelligent, highly capable minions- Usually your average villain has an inner circle which controls his forces, and are strong enough to hold their own in a fight; this inner circle, however, isn't overwhelming, and is usually destroyed one by one because of their vices or stupidity. Sovereign has an ex-Spectre who's the best of the best with a calculating personality, and a highly respected and adept matriarch with powers over dark energy. As such, they are very good choices and are tough to kill.
4)Actually causes fear of him- most villains try this, and with a few exceptions, it fails. Miserably. Sovereign is powerful enough,cunning enough, and has the right voice to make you fear him. This is a being that is sitting in orbit a mere thousand miles above you, suddenly revealing that he's one of the machines who scoured the galaxy of life, several times. And by the sound of things, he's going to start with you...
5)Has near absolute control- Sovereign has a god-complex for a reason: every single minion under his will serves him completely, even if they don't realize it. There are no defectors. Even Saren, as strong as he was, obeyed Sovereign's every directive, and took everything he had to kill himself.
And that is why Sovereign is a great villain.
He does the things that typical villains try to do, and actually pulls them off.
1)unexpected- he's Saren's ship, his dreadnaught. Who expects the ship itself to be the villain?
2)Backs up his threats- most villains monologue away in a rather feeble attempt to impress upon their captive audience that they're dangerous and will kill you. Usually this means a half-hearted chase after you by incompetent minions, the actual villain just standing there waiting. Sovereign chases after you himself(yes, he's a ship, and a fast one at that,but it still counts)and you just barely get out of there.
3)Has intelligent, highly capable minions- Usually your average villain has an inner circle which controls his forces, and are strong enough to hold their own in a fight; this inner circle, however, isn't overwhelming, and is usually destroyed one by one because of their vices or stupidity. Sovereign has an ex-Spectre who's the best of the best with a calculating personality, and a highly respected and adept matriarch with powers over dark energy. As such, they are very good choices and are tough to kill.
4)Actually causes fear of him- most villains try this, and with a few exceptions, it fails. Miserably. Sovereign is powerful enough,cunning enough, and has the right voice to make you fear him. This is a being that is sitting in orbit a mere thousand miles above you, suddenly revealing that he's one of the machines who scoured the galaxy of life, several times. And by the sound of things, he's going to start with you...
5)Has near absolute control- Sovereign has a god-complex for a reason: every single minion under his will serves him completely, even if they don't realize it. There are no defectors. Even Saren, as strong as he was, obeyed Sovereign's every directive, and took everything he had to kill himself.
And that is why Sovereign is a great villain.
Very well thought out, Imperator, and I must agree. For me, a truly great villain needs to be powerful enough to hold his own in some way, even if not directly, extremely intelligent, and completely without morals at the least.
Also, every single mantra of supremacy he grates out is, to a degree, justified. He's manipulated the galaxy for millenia. one more annoying organic makes no difference. Back to the whole god-complex, in his own obscene way, he brings the dead back to life. Not many villains can do this effectively, the plan usually backfiring horrendously. Plus, he has an entire race worshiping him as a god, and he feels disgust at it. Most villains would just enjoy the attention. Sovereign simply doesn't care, and has no attachment or loyalty other than that of the Reaper cause. He has nothing for the viewer to sympathize with, only the desire to see him broken into tiny little pieces. That is the mark of a true villain, to actually make the player hate him, beyond just simply an enemy to fight for fun.
In my opinion, the best type of villain is when they're insanely clichéd, but manage to engage you, make you laugh and smile anyway. I like the ridiculous over the top villain, superhero style.
Of course, characters like the villain in Bioshock (carefully avoiding spoilers) are fantastic, but I still long for a decent, cartoony super villain who has some ridiculous plan to flood a city by breaking all the fire hydrants at the same time, or setting up a series of mirrors in space which just after a solar eclipse will focus the light in such a way to destroy the statue of Liberty, or something.
I just think it's so enjoyable to have ridiculous supervillains who laugh maniacally, give warnings, manipulate and have stupid henchmen.
They're AWESOME.
Unless they're only half corny, or treat themselves cornily. They have to considers themselves serious.
Of course, characters like the villain in Bioshock (carefully avoiding spoilers) are fantastic, but I still long for a decent, cartoony super villain who has some ridiculous plan to flood a city by breaking all the fire hydrants at the same time, or setting up a series of mirrors in space which just after a solar eclipse will focus the light in such a way to destroy the statue of Liberty, or something.
I just think it's so enjoyable to have ridiculous supervillains who laugh maniacally, give warnings, manipulate and have stupid henchmen.
They're AWESOME.
Unless they're only half corny, or treat themselves cornily. They have to considers themselves serious.
A fleshed out personality and mostly, a sense of intelligence.
Killing a henchmen that failed a mission does automatically make one a villain. It makes them a idiot who is wasting resources. Now planting a bomb inside said henchmen and making him/her get close to the heroes as it explodes, now that is villainy.
Also, not making everybody hate you. Instead act in such a way that you'll have true supporters thus causing you doubt about who is wrong after all. (A villain that slays every village he comes across is much more easy to take down than one who saves an ill man being abused by a henchmen, probably stabbing said henchman's hand in the process, who by chance has a child who witnessed the moment. The child then will lean more into praising you than growing up to detest you and killing you in the future. Doesn't mean he won't mass murder an entire rebel village if needed too though. But only if needed)
I remember a list of 100 things not to do as a villain on the Internetz. More like the rules to avoid every stupidity a RPG villain ends up doing (Like sending progressively stronger minions to defeat the hero instead of sending the top tier right away). It was pretty enlightening.
Killing a henchmen that failed a mission does automatically make one a villain. It makes them a idiot who is wasting resources. Now planting a bomb inside said henchmen and making him/her get close to the heroes as it explodes, now that is villainy.
Also, not making everybody hate you. Instead act in such a way that you'll have true supporters thus causing you doubt about who is wrong after all. (A villain that slays every village he comes across is much more easy to take down than one who saves an ill man being abused by a henchmen, probably stabbing said henchman's hand in the process, who by chance has a child who witnessed the moment. The child then will lean more into praising you than growing up to detest you and killing you in the future. Doesn't mean he won't mass murder an entire rebel village if needed too though. But only if needed)
I remember a list of 100 things not to do as a villain on the Internetz. More like the rules to avoid every stupidity a RPG villain ends up doing (Like sending progressively stronger minions to defeat the hero instead of sending the top tier right away). It was pretty enlightening.
The problem with Sovereign and the Reapers by extension in Mass Effect is quite simple... They are too certain of their own omnipotence that they use an overly complicated method to screw everyone that falls apart if the enemy is not completely asleep at the wheel. Given what is known about the Reapers they should simply be able to blanket known space with their numbers and crush any kind of resistance even if the resistance knew they were there. It would have been far simpler to cause the races to go to war with each other than to do what they did. They would not have to go to a plan B at this point had they done that. It wouldn't have even mattered that the last great civilization almost pulled off surviving their onslaught. Sovereign is an idiot, he talks so much about how ungodly powerful he is that he never considers that his plan would not go off without a hitch, he even goes so far as to reveal himself to his enemy long before he can engage the trap letting everyone know he is there before he has already sealed their fate.
The Patriots in the Metal Gear Solid games make much better villains than those idiots in Mass Effect because they only reveal the plan long after the entire cast is already in a position where they are completely fucked. I would like to see more villains that are actually correct in their thinking, don't act out of hatred, and at their core are indistinguihable from the hero. It would be interesting to see a game where the hero and villain are not only on the same side, but are aware of this.
The Patriots in the Metal Gear Solid games make much better villains than those idiots in Mass Effect because they only reveal the plan long after the entire cast is already in a position where they are completely fucked. I would like to see more villains that are actually correct in their thinking, don't act out of hatred, and at their core are indistinguihable from the hero. It would be interesting to see a game where the hero and villain are not only on the same side, but are aware of this.
Mr Han from "Enter the Dragon". One of the greatest bad guys ever in cinema.
To be a great villain, I think you need certain elements, such as:
1) Must do something really nasty to someone you really like. (Killing Williams in a roomful of beautiful laughing women certainly fulfils that one.)
2) Must be well acted and have the right physicality for the role. (Shih Kien's Han looks every inch the lapsed Shaolin monk that he is - it's the attitude, the outward dignity that's belied by the occasional inward-looking sneer.)
3) Must in some way be a "reversal" of the hero(es). (Bruce Lee's character has a certain love of humiliation, as does Han; Williams is extremely vain, as is Han [what other villain keeps an entire hall of mirrors in his private quarters?]; Roper is a petty criminal and somewhat corrupt, as is Han. However Han has none of Lee's dedication to the Shaolin cause, Williams' compassion, or Roper's essential integrity.)
Oh, and it doesn't hurt to have a physical disfigurement, such as a missing hand or facial scar...
What great villains are there in videogames? None that I'm aware of, bearing in mind that I've come back to gaming fairly recently and haven't played a lot of games that are mentioned above. But Shodan comes closest. It's interesting that throughout System Shock and System Shock 2, the hero has to "upgrade" more and more, but in doing so he's becoming more like the thing he's trying to defeat - a fact that Shodan herself mentions in both games.
To be a great villain, I think you need certain elements, such as:
1) Must do something really nasty to someone you really like. (Killing Williams in a roomful of beautiful laughing women certainly fulfils that one.)
2) Must be well acted and have the right physicality for the role. (Shih Kien's Han looks every inch the lapsed Shaolin monk that he is - it's the attitude, the outward dignity that's belied by the occasional inward-looking sneer.)
3) Must in some way be a "reversal" of the hero(es). (Bruce Lee's character has a certain love of humiliation, as does Han; Williams is extremely vain, as is Han [what other villain keeps an entire hall of mirrors in his private quarters?]; Roper is a petty criminal and somewhat corrupt, as is Han. However Han has none of Lee's dedication to the Shaolin cause, Williams' compassion, or Roper's essential integrity.)
Oh, and it doesn't hurt to have a physical disfigurement, such as a missing hand or facial scar...
What great villains are there in videogames? None that I'm aware of, bearing in mind that I've come back to gaming fairly recently and haven't played a lot of games that are mentioned above. But Shodan comes closest. It's interesting that throughout System Shock and System Shock 2, the hero has to "upgrade" more and more, but in doing so he's becoming more like the thing he's trying to defeat - a fact that Shodan herself mentions in both games.
Sovereign has seen his plans go perfectly right many times before. How could you not be confident that your plan is going to work when it's done so well for so long? At any rate, I suspect that the creators of the Reapers programmed them to do this cycle. It's only when you get too settled into a routine that things go wrong. Anyway, Sovereign's just a vanguard; The other Reapers probably have a back-up plan set up.shadow skill said:
An aristocratic English accent. That's about it really. When once asked why villains in Hollywood films were always English, Anthony Hopkins replied: "I think it's because Americans distrust intelligence."
Kane from Command & Conquer is a great villan. He comes in from nowhere, leads an army of religious zealots in a war where his main goal is that he wants the entire world to become mutated at the whim of the alien crystal Tiberium.
He makes some damn powerful and successful schemes, often to the confusion of all who think about what he is asking him to do.
THAT is a great villan. One whos plan never is revealed until it's already over, and one where he manipulates both sides of the conflict in order to achieve his goals.
He makes some damn powerful and successful schemes, often to the confusion of all who think about what he is asking him to do.
THAT is a great villan. One whos plan never is revealed until it's already over, and one where he manipulates both sides of the conflict in order to achieve his goals.
You don't prattle on about how omnipotent you are when the first thing you realize is that your perfect trap is already fucked up. The last great race managed to mess with the citadel so as to disallow Sovereign doing his routine business. He suffers from "No one else could possibly figure this out" syndrome, and the script writers mishandled the plot by even putting Sovereign in there in the first game at least.Imperator_2 said:
True Insanity, must be willing to destroy a planet if they don't have their way...
That's my ideal villain. Of course, that's more of a psychotic sort...
I suppose an unrelenting desire of power for whatever reason.
Or just a desire to prove a point.
That's my ideal villain. Of course, that's more of a psychotic sort...
I suppose an unrelenting desire of power for whatever reason.
Or just a desire to prove a point.
You must admit though, he did fulfill the criteria I put out there. He's not your average villain.shadow skill said:
When I'm writing, I don't like for a person to be a villan. It's just that people have different goals, and different ways of going about them. The closest thing to the over the top super-villan only occurs twice; both of them have lost something very precious to them (one his two children and the other his...wife would be the closest way to translate it) and are trying to get themselves killed. Both eventually fail, one because he can't die, and the other becuause he's too absurdly powerful to be simply killed, and becuause a lot of people still care about him.
That's not to say that there aren't forces that oppose each other, just that they can't be called wholly evil. I don't like that.
Except with Joker. It really works with him.
Apologies for ranting.
That's not to say that there aren't forces that oppose each other, just that they can't be called wholly evil. I don't like that.
Except with Joker. It really works with him.
Apologies for ranting.
One thing I forgot to mention: I really like villains who are just the very epitome of malice. Villains who don't have a problem with offing the innocent, or cause mass hysteria without batting an eye, perhaps even revelling in it, really get me going. Villains who can genuinely make me hate to love them and love to hate them earn bonus points from me; like, they're only being evil for evil's sake or are just really deranged, sinister, malevolent works of chaos.
Like The Joker or Clubber Lang.
Like The Joker or Clubber Lang.
I disagree with this one. I hate the old stand-by "beauty equals goodness/ugliness equals evilness". I'd prefer my villains to be the definition of physical perfection. I love how it does seems to screw with our minds, as our natural reaction is to root for the beautiful people. (which might explain why there are so many Sephiroth fan shrines, despite him being a genocidal maniac)TheMadDoctorsCat said:
A prefect example of this would be the Elves from "Lords and Ladies" in the Diskworld series. Everyone seems to forget that they're brutal killers without any kind of empathy in lieu of the fact that they're really good looking.
I actually agree here. This is one of the many reasons why I find most of the Bond movies irritating. In the books, Bond was the flawed, scarred one, while his enemies were often physically perfect - even physically improved. (Largo from "Thunderbird" is a great example - in the book, there's no stupid eye-patch; instead he's a handsome charmer whose only "deformity" is over-large hands. All the better to strangle you with, my dear.) In most the Hollywood movies, of course, they had to turn this around and make Bond some kind of vision of perfection. In doing so they completely de-humanized him and, frankly, made most of the films rather boring, since you don't care what happens to him - and there's never any chance of his failing anyway so there's no tension at all. The exceptions to my mind are "From Russia with Love", "Goldfinger" and the two Dalton movies - Goldfinger is probably the only movie to change the plot of a book for the better.ZenMonkey47 said: