Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[angelsmash]

Okay, first, yes. What's wrong with variety? Why should every character be a white, straight male? Are male gamers so close minded that they could not handle playing with a black man, a gay woman, a muslim child?

The problem people have with the Duke Nukem feature -- to clarify: I do not have a problem with it. I think it's immature and boring, but eh, what else can one expect from Duke Nukem? --- is that unlike the alien killing, getting slapped in the ass does happen to women. And it's games like this or shows with a similar standing, that promote these behaviours. Ask any woman, chances are some douchebag has, at some point, slapped her in the ass or copped a feel just because she was there. When it's something that DOES happen to us, it's not fun watching it be triviliazied in a lulzy way on a videogame. Shit, if it was a serious game about the wrongs of sexual harrasment no one would give a damn. A better example for your comparison would have been the game CoD:MW1 which clearly involves the American forces in a Mysterious Middle Eastern Country being Big Goddamn Heroes. It's something that's loosely based on reality, and that's why some people don't like it. You wouldn't be able to pass Racist rhetoric in a video game and claim it's just for the lulz, because like with sexism, racism is still existant and prevalent in our society.

(Also, lol at the WWI comment. Seriously, why not complain about the men who, while the soldiers were fighting, were delighting themselves in feasts sponsored by their inherited money? Nah, only the girls who were Working -- yes, stripping is a job -- are the ones who had undeserved money.)

Also, hello there, blatant generalizations! What makes you think women don't have 'Hero Fantasies.' Shit, dude, I know this might be hard to swallow, but, women do have 'Hero Fantasies' because, get this dude, women can like the same things that men like. And -- hear this -- sometimes, we tend to have the same fantasies as men! But maybe that means we are not proper girls because we all know that TRUE WOMEN should be docile and sweet and dream about babies and cake not about kicking ass or being a bad ass hitman. Yeah, fuck that. This are not the 1950s, your gender roles are now considered backwards, stupid and ignorant.

Blimey, it's like people don't get the point. The huge racks, amazing asses and never ending close-up of cleavages do not matter so long as the characters are well developed. I've said it before. We don't care as much about the looks as you think we do. Yes, not every woman is a shallow, insecure ***** who will go to a corner and cry everytime someone with a bigger cup size appears on the screen. No, we don't throw our arms up in the air in frustration when we see someone with amazing legs. And by the sevenhundreth closeup of Female Sidekicks A's tits we've stopped giving a damn about the fanservice. Personality is far more important than looks.

Men, women are not trying to take over the industry. We are not going to storm into your houses and replace your shooters collection with Strawberry Shortcake's Extreme Adventure 2: The Quest of Tampons and Chocolates. Nor are we going to stop developers from including a Male main character. No, men. We do not want to ~dominate~. We want decent representation. Like the one you tend to have. That's all we want. Good, well-developed female characters. (PS: We promise we will leave the PC Police at the door.)

What's your cup size? You're doing Dead or Alive a grievous injustice - there's a whole range of racks in there!

 

[Johnny Impact]

Who wants to know why people hate feminism? THIS is why:

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU

On a lighter note FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, why would you link that?! it hurts when i try to read it... how dare a male be in charge :O

Don't ever try to talk to a radical feminist. You can't coexist with someone who treats every thought, word, and gesture -- every single iota of data that gets in through her senses -- as a personal attack.

If I say hello to a woman the exact same way I would say it to a man and she hears attempted rape in my words, that is an extremely serious mental problem. Despite her vehement belief to the contrary, the problem is not with me.

 

[oplinger]

Culture.

If it becomes more gender neutral, we lose the culture. We lose a lot really. Most of it doesn't matter. However, the gaming subculture would be a lot different if we let everyone in. Things change as they become mainstream >_> ask a fan of any indie band that got popular.

That's the most ridiculous argument for why women are excluded from gaming culture that I've ever heard.

So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

Nice reading eyes you got there.

 

[bad rider]

Wow, you possess an astounding amount of pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty. Why don't you quote the whole quote like a fucking "man"?

Don't Be a Jerk
This rule trumps any other. Any loophole you think you've found in any other rule is covered by this one. If you make our forums a less pleasant place to be, we don't want you here.
Have Respect for Others
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to attack others for sharing, or not sharing, that opinion. If you can't communicate without using combative, aggressive, or demeaning language, then please keep those comments to yourself, or be shown the door. Deliberately inflammatory threads; posts written with the sole intention of irritating people; attacks toward or inappropriate commentary regarding The Escapist staff, creators, or other posters; or attempts to derail a thread will be removed, as will your forum privileges.

 

[razelas]

"No. Just, no.
Feminism is not about making it all about the women. It's about giving women the same opportunities that men have. "

Except this isn't the case. The loudest- and thus most recognized- persons who use the term 'Feminism' approach the subject in exactly that way. That women are superior and that men work day in and day out to 'keep them down'.

I could use your same argument about 'Chauvinism' except it's *accepted* that Chauvinism has no redeeming qualities and thus I'd get burned in effigy.


The problem is that sane people who believe in Equality actually *practice it* and don't run about screaming about it.

So because the people who scream the loudest determine what something means? Lolwut?

So according to the Westboro Baptist Church, Christianity is all about how God hates humans straying from his path of righteousness?

So according to Al-Qeada, Islam is all about killing infidels who don't worship Allah and practice misogyny?

So according to white-supremacists, all white people really just want dark-skinned people enslaved or dead?

I could go on you know.

 

[razelas]

Wow, you possess an astounding amount of pretentiousness and intellectual dishonesty. Why don't you quote the whole quote like a fucking "man"?

Don't Be a Jerk
This rule trumps any other. Any loophole you think you've found in any other rule is covered by this one. If you make our forums a less pleasant place to be, we don't want you here.
Have Respect for Others
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to attack others for sharing, or not sharing, that opinion. If you can't communicate without using combative, aggressive, or demeaning language, then please keep those comments to yourself, or be shown the door. Deliberately inflammatory threads; posts written with the sole intention of irritating people; attacks toward or inappropriate commentary regarding The Escapist staff, creators, or other posters; or attempts to derail a thread will be removed, as will your forum privileges.

I apologize for my belligerent and uncivil behavior. I did not intend to find any loopholes to insult another member.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

You don't tend to see people lusting after male characters, they aren't idealised in the same way.

Personally, I'm generally of the opinion if members of a minority group claim that something is offensive to them, they are more likely on this issue to be correct than people not in the group telling them they are wrong and should put up with it.

Which games have you been playing? People act like that over male characters all the time. It's just as much a cornerstone of the industry (at least in Japan) as the people drooling over scantily-clad women.

 

[angelsmash]

Honestly, women just complain more. This coming from a woman who's sick of hearing women complain about men getting preferential treatment. If you want more equality, just suck it up and wait for it. "Equality" is on its way, and RPG games like Dragon Age etc. are pioneering the golden road on which your "white knight in shining armour riding a retarded unicorn"-game will soon arrive.

Oh, wait... Cooking Mama, Nintendogs and other wii games come to mind. They ARE suited for women, no? Then there's WiiFit. Super Mario? A lot of people don't seem to realise that the industry ARE catering to EVERYBODY. But not in EVERY game they make.

Marketing campaigns do often favour the stereotypical white, male, straight gamer in the games they sell. Because there are more of them than there are girls who play games. Which is a fact. So more of them will be rushing to GameStation to buy them.

What always baffles me is that girls could just make their own games if the current crop are so to their disliking. Arabs make games all the time (and they're huge fans of MW2, go figure).

 

[ninetails593]

I'm against feminism in general. It's sexist in it's purist form. Who's going to be sexist against females? Males. Thus the assumption that males are sexist. Women aren't being banned from careers, activities, or participation, in these times. In the 1900's there was blatant and accepted sexism, but that's been eliminated. I have never once in my life heard of any female having been proven to have been rejected from a credible career just for being a woman. We used to have women forced to be at home and raising children, made to only do certain and terrible jobs, if any. Now, we have a sign saying, "Cheaper than your girlfriend". Clearly nothing has changed. I do, however, support feminism in areas that have sexism.

 

[Marcosn]

Who wants to know why people hate feminism? THIS is why:

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU

On a lighter note FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, why would you link that?! it hurts when i try to read it... how dare a male be in charge :O

Don't ever try to talk to a radical feminist. You can't coexist with someone who treats every thought, word, and gesture -- every single iota of data that gets in through her senses -- as a personal attack.

If I say hello to a woman the exact same way I would say it to a man and she hears attempted rape in my words, that is an extremely serious mental problem. Despite her vehement belief to the contrary, the problem is not with me.

True and thats why i'm glad they're not all radical. I got less than a fifth down the page and gave up when it went "RAAAAAAAAAPE" , some people do ruin it for others like how certain people ruin it for muslims and with any group ever, oh well nothing a bit of monty python cant fix eh?

Is it wrong that half of the comments on this thread remind me of my old RE teacher who says "I'm not a sexist, I'm just a realist" <---- makes me laugh :')

 

[Rottweiler]

"So because the people who scream the loudest determine what something means? Lolwut?

So according to the Westboro Baptist Church, Christianity is all about how God hates humans straying from his path of righteousness?

So according to Al-Qeada, Islam is all about killing infidels who don't worship Allah and practice misogyny?

So according to white-supremacists, all white people really just want dark-skinned people enslaved or dead?

I could go on you know."

So could I. And guess what- those groups are indeed trying to be accepted as Truth by Volume.

Unfortunately, while you missed my point somewhere behind 'lolwhut' you also made a point for me- people who don't have a personal stake in something or who seek out other opinions to make their own tend to gravitate toward the most obvious or loudest opinions.

 

[MasterChief892039]

Because as a male I am sick of hearing people try to demonize the male sex and feminize everyone. Women are portrayed as better than men in every media you can think of. Think about it, how many times has a man been portrayed as competent in any aspect from making coffee to making love in commercials, tv shows or most movies? None.

Believe me - true feminists don't support those types of commercials either.
Relevant link

I also disapprove of such commercials because I think it's childish and counterproductive to try and "even out" prejudice against women by debasing men.

Gaming is looked at as a male thing, just like diaries and romantic comedies are looked at as a female thing. Get over it and quit thinking everything has to show women as the dominant species (that wasn't directed to the OP, just the hardcore feminazis that want men to be subservient in everything.)

Your mistake is that you're relating the entirety of gaming to a single genre of film. Yes, "romcoms" are considered "female", but the film industry as a whole is not, there are movies that are geared toward both men and women. The problem with gaming is that the entire industry, is, for some reason, considered male, with no (non-patronizing) genres made for women.

 

[Flac00]

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

honestly the gamerstation thing was just a joke. Sexist? maybe. But that doesn't mean it is a one way road. Any store makes a joke along the same lines just with the opposite gender as focus, I would be perfectly fine with it.

 

[DementedSheep]

Because allot of the time in more a case of people not being able to accept a joke or a self parody that was not actually intended to be derogatory to woman? And not every thing has to be gender neutral, its fine to have stuff geared for guys just give us girls some games geared for us and full of hot men too.

I?m not saying there is not sexism against us woman in video games or that the market isn't dominated by men but its not as bad as people make it out to be and people kick up a fuss over nothing. There sexism against guys too. There are allot of hot male unrealistically muscled male protagonists in video games too but no one complains about them. Using mass effect as an example I?ve seen tons of people slam Miranda?s character for her skin tight jumpsuit and because you see her in a bra in her sex scene but the only complaints about Jacob are that he?s boring yet he is also wearing a skin-tight jumpsuit and takes off his shirt in the romance scene.

 

[ViaGalactica]

holy crap... i think some of my brain cells just died =_=
He didnt mean every woman or just every man he meant everyone. EVERYONE has a price.
"wow the girl is spreading her legs for the ring that must be sexist" is just wrong on so many levels, have you noticed how its the guy who's proposing and how it almost always is?

Also about Ivy, you just said that you haven't looked into her story and then blamed her for having large breasts and wearing skimpy clothing. Maybe if you actually knew about her then you would see more than just breasts.

how can men even complain? There are so many ways, have you played resident evil 5? "RAWR BIG MUSCLES I STOP BOULDER" and so many other games show men to be big piles of muscle with nothing else and other unrealistic things. There is no room for complaints from men because it's only the womens complaints that get heard.

So if he meant EVERY PERSON and not EVERY WOMAN, why not include a picture of a man, instead? I never called the woman trading sex for a ring sexist. That shit happens. But it happens because that's what society tells us should happen. 'No sex until marriage' ring a bell? What is sexist is to imply that only women exchange a certain thing for money/power/status. And that's what the picture, in that context, implies.

So what if the dude has to pop the question? What of it? That's a tradition that I couldn't care less if it disappeared. I don't want a man on his knees with an overprized ring. And most women wouldn't give a damn about it, either, if we didn't grow up seeing it everywhere on the media. But, regardless, proposing just like holding a door, is not a sign of sexism towards men. It's not even prejudice. It's the way society tells us to behave. And fankly, when you compare that to being told that you are to be forver subservient to the man who asks the question and holds the door for you, it really is no big deal.

I didn't blame her for having big breasts. I said that's the only thing I know about her. I don't like fighting games, so I never bothered playing the game. One of my exes loved it, however, and I'd sit and watch her play. That's how I learned who she was and what she looked like. That's all I know about her. That's all I said I knew about her.

Okay? See how it bothers you that men are portrayed as giant piles of testosterone, steroids and guns? Fine. It sucks right? Now you should be able to understand why it bothers women when we are portrayed as the ditzy sidekick with huge tits. Now, the main difference between men and women in this case is that, when you get bored of these guys, you could pick up a game like Half-Life or Assassin's and enjoy the story of a well-developed male main character. Us girls have to look way harder to find something that will erase the taste of Stereotypical Girl 9007.

 

[kurupt87]

Oh, grow up for christ sake. Those of us who laugh at these jokes can tell when someone is being serious. Those who don't, can't.

And what exactly do you do if someone is serious? Just cough and let the awkward moment pass?

Depends who it is. If it's a mate you call them on it, they'll then claim it was definitely a joke. Most people are shit liars so that will probably confirm it. Basically, you stop being friends and become aquaintances.

If it's a workmate it depends, but probably along the same line as the friend. Maybe report if it's really out of line; have to be real bad though, this person is a peer and you might get them fired for thought crime. Harsh.

If it's your boss, laugh like s/he just cracked a winner. Then tell everyone else s/he's a dickhead and carry on working. Have a mosey around to see if the bosses attitude has influenced the workplace (published work, hirings etc) and if it has then report away. If it hasn't, do squat.

Most anything in Western marketing that's -ist is going to be a joke; it's even a compliment to whatever group it is, that they're mature enough and actually have a sense of humour that wasn't left to rot away during childhood.

Finding humor in oppression and irrational hate is "mature"?

Well that's where we differ buddy. I don't see any oppression or irrational hate; all I see is an offensive statement made purely to get a laugh. Shit, I'm British, all we do is insult eachother.

It's only people I don't know or don't respect that I'm nice to.

Nice to people I don't know because everyone has their own particular brand of funny and when you're dealing in offensive jokes it's best the people you're telling them to actually know you. Nice to people I don't respect but who are themselves friendly; this is because I don't think they're smart/strong/funny enough to take whatever the joke is, and they're friendly so I'm not going to be rude.

Basically, I feel like people want to be treated like children because they're afraid their poor ickle feelings might get hurt. The world isn't gumdrops and rainbows and sure as shit aint fair, stop imagining it is. The naivety and entitlement of my generation and younger is actually offensive to me, in the unfunny way.

 

[Angry_squirrel]

This is how I interpret the word based on my experience with many people calling themselves feminists, I made a point to say that it is my opinion, not fact. Nor did I ever go "Telling people what they really are"

Please explain how "interpreting" a group identity (based on anecdotal evidence no less) is different from telling people that the identity they use is incorrect.

I also tried to make it very clear that I do support equal female rights. I get the impression that this is what you're arguing for, so why with the aggression?

You support equal female rights but you think feminists are sexist women... even though feminists have done more than you could ever "support" for equal female rights? lolwut?

I get the impression that you're in a very bad mood and taking it out on the wrong person. Seriously, you're getting at me for my perception of a word? I'm not saying it's right and that that's the one and only way that the word can be interpreted, I'm just pointing out what comes to mind when I hear it said.
Perhaps I have just had bad experience with feminists, but really you are doing nothing to change my opinion.

Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe there are just as many sexist women as there are sexist men? Well that is how you are coming across to me, as a sexist woman who hates men. If I am wrong, please prove it to me. Stop with the aggression and calmly tell me why you disagree with what I've said, rather than attacking everything I say.

 

[Lead Herring]

Snip

The fact that people are against feminism in general is a very, very sad fact.

The problem with that fact is, John, that it implies females are expensive. And, surely, you must know this, John, but women are not really property. See, unlike a video game, you can't really 'buy' a woman because, unless you are talking about a prostitute with a fee, they don't have a prize. We are not commodities, John, we cannot be bought.

Also, I find it hilarious how men think that the reason women don't like most female game characters is because they are hotter than us. Oh, you guys. I, personally, have never met someone who would ever feel insecure when compared to a fictional, 2D character. It's not the characters looks that bother us, John, nor is it the clothes -- or lack thereof -- that they wear. It's their personalities. Take Samara from Mass Effect 2, for example. Gorgeous face, great pair of breasts, amazing body, tight and revealing suit -- she's damn hot. And yet us, 'feminazis' do not complain about her. Want to know why? Because she is a well developed character. She has a personality. She is more than just a set of breasts to stare at. It doesn't matter if the characters are hotter, I like looking at hot characters, it's the empty personalities what annoy us.

And really, I know it's hard to be a male gamer. How can you stand living when most male video game characters are at least two of the following: smart, funny, brave, courageous, good-looking, strong, badass or determined. They are so unfair to you guys. So unfair.

You know what? I completely agreed with you right up until you said "Also, I find it hilarious how 'men' think" notice the sexism here?

The problem I think is that we are all prejudice in one way or another. Hell, we are born either male or female, and it is pretty much impossible to imagine life as the other sex. So maybe that's the reason for undeveloped female characters? More male game designers, who know how to create a male character but not a female one.

Many of the people on this board are not against feminists as you see them, it depends on your definition of the word 'feminist'. To me, feminist means a sexist female. One who - if they had the chance - would do the exact same thing but in vice versa. If however you simply support EQUAL female rights, then power to you, there is nothing wrong with that.

Personally I think the problem is in people. The developers of Duke Nukem are not sexist, they are simply responding to their audience. Personally, I loled when I saw the idea for a gametype "capture the babe", that doesn't make me a sexist.

Femenist already has a meaning, the word was coined to mean a woman who wants equal rights to men. A sexist female is a Misandrist. There are a few misandrist women working under the lable of Femenist because they think all men are Misogynists, these are a vocal minority. You cant say that you have an alternate definition of the word, that is part of the problem.

Also, its funny that you should mention Duke Nukem, as the Duke himself is a rampant sexist. This is an odd case however as the creators themselves acknowlege this and have even offered for femenists to use the character in their campaigns.

Who wants to know why people hate feminism? THIS is why:

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU

And westboro baptist church is why everyone hates christians.

Also I wish people would stop confusing Feminists and Misandrists.

Well said, good to see someone else who can tell the difference.

I found that Gamestation ad to be in poor taste, and the company's response to one of their employee's concerns to be in even poorer taste. I can honestly say that, if I saw a sign like that, I would not shop there. I hope the employee quit. I would. I'm actually surprised there isn't more outrage over this.

Now, I'm afraid I've fallen into the camp of people who cringe when they hear the word 'Feminism'. Perhaps it meant something different once, but now I feel it means crushing men beneath a boot. If you tell me you're a feminist, I'm done talking with you because, no matter what I say, I'm going to offend you since I'm a guy. Let's not forget that feminism, in it's current state, says that, even though it was the woman who cheated, broke the vows, and treats her husband like dirt, HE still has to pay HER for several years, she gets at least HALF of everything--if not all of it--and if kids are involved, almost by default they will go to her. THAT is what comes to mind when I hear the word Feminism.
Equal rights, equal pay, equal treatment (at least where it can be applied) are great. Swinging the balance in the completely opposite direction is not the way to obtain this.
Hm...I feel I have gone off track. Sorry.

Thing is, while men generally still have it better than women over all, there are still some areas that men experience prejudice in, such as reactions to female on male sexual harassment and longer sentences to men committing the same crimes as women. You can see parallels in the racial rights movement where white people also experience some form of prejudice despite the fact that they, overall, are the most privileged ethnicity.

I think the main problem is that people are only focusing on their own demographics problems and ignoring the problems that others experience, because really, we don't want to see women portrayed as blank slates in media and they dont want to see violence against men trivialised. It's just that we think they only care about their problems.

 

[MasterChief892039]

Culture.

If it becomes more gender neutral, we lose the culture. We lose a lot really. Most of it doesn't matter. However, the gaming subculture would be a lot different if we let everyone in. Things change as they become mainstream >_> ask a fan of any indie band that got popular.

That's the most ridiculous argument for why women are excluded from gaming culture that I've ever heard.

So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

Nice reading eyes you got there.

...my opinion is still the same.