Why do you believe?
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Yes, but aren't those examples rather a problem with indoctrination by a religious institution, trying to keep a hold over the world than the religion itself?Cliff_m85 said:
Maybe I'm not making much sense here (after all, I'm argueing for the other side here), but I feel that religion itself can be helpful for a community, the problem is keeping it away from worldly power!
France, for example, managed to completely separate state and church. I don't think we need to abolish religion, we just need to have a very clearly drawn line to make sure it doesn't interfere with the state, as well as the freedoms and rights of every human.
I do not believe anyone should live in fear of a vengeful God.
I do not believe you need to believe in a higher power to have morals.
I do not believe there was a guy 2000 years ago who came back from the dead.
I do not believe there is an all loving god who would send you to burn for eternity if you sin.
I do not believe putting my hands together and wishfully thinking to previously mentioned 2000 year old man will have effect on whatever outcome my thoughts were trying to sway.
Sorry for any and all offence, that's just how I see things.
I do not believe you need to believe in a higher power to have morals.
I do not believe there was a guy 2000 years ago who came back from the dead.
I do not believe there is an all loving god who would send you to burn for eternity if you sin.
I do not believe putting my hands together and wishfully thinking to previously mentioned 2000 year old man will have effect on whatever outcome my thoughts were trying to sway.
Sorry for any and all offence, that's just how I see things.
Ah, but if man is responsible for religion... well, religion can't be the root of all evil.Skeleon said:
Well, that's what I said, isn't it?ThrobbingEgo said:
It's humans that corrupt a value system into a means of enforcing worldly power when it clearly should stay a spiritual support.
But that only happens if a religious institution is granted enough power to actually interfere with everyday life instead of adding to it.
Where this value system comes from is basically irrelevant (man-made to control, part of our social evolution, super-natural being, etc.), what matters is what you do with it.
At least to me, since I believe in freedom of religion.
One cannot simply keep religion to themselves, as we see time and time again. Man is to blame for religion, period. The books presented that deal in faith have a certain zeal in describing what the nonbeliever will have to deal with. Not to mention what those who go against it's rules must deal with. If we went 100% by what the Bible told us, we'd have a higher case of infanticide today. Religion isn't helpful at all, it is just a mask for human charity honestly. You can't name one thing that religious persons could do charitably that an Atheist could not do as well, but you could possibly name actions that a religious person could do violently that an Atheist could not.Skeleon said:
Religion strives to gain worldly power, it takes zeal in the claim that one day the nonbelievers will be purged from the believers. That 'the fool in his heart', an organ with no rational abilities at all, 'says there is no god' (which is one of my favorite quotes because it reminds me of schoolyard bullying tactics....only a douche likes Pokemon!) and that we are moralless.
People should have the right to believe in religion, but we should also have the right to lack of religion. The United States has fallen a bit on that end, with each politician wanking their religion all over the place.
Some religious people in my own family don't even know that I am religious because I am not required by dogma to do anything. I believe a supreme being envelops our universe, that we are a part of this supreme being quite similar to cells making up our own bodies. We really don't HAVE to do anything but live, however, living fully, thinking positively and influencing others around you in a positive manner gives more back to our supreme being. All religions fit into this view of how things work, when a person dies who is a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc., they experience their beliefs at their death. Things change after death when they are open to understanding.
When I was young I studied many religions. I was searching for one that sounded RIGHT to me. I never found any. They all were cut from the same cloth. Most of them required the worship of the being mainly noted as God. I could not get by this very human perception of what God wants us to do. It all sounded false to me. It depressed me because I wanted to believe in something in a time my life was in turmoil.
Over the years I have listened to soft words in my own heart. I have come to accept that a supreme being holds us together, listens to us, but does not require anything.
When I was young I studied many religions. I was searching for one that sounded RIGHT to me. I never found any. They all were cut from the same cloth. Most of them required the worship of the being mainly noted as God. I could not get by this very human perception of what God wants us to do. It all sounded false to me. It depressed me because I wanted to believe in something in a time my life was in turmoil.
Over the years I have listened to soft words in my own heart. I have come to accept that a supreme being holds us together, listens to us, but does not require anything.
Hm, I don't know about the last part, since I don't live there. But of course I agree with your first statement. Freedom of religion also means the freedom not to have any religion, of course.Cliff_m85 said:
Sounds like USA is a bit backwards in that regard, but as I said, I don't know any of this from first person experience.
And if I go outside I may get shot by a psychopath....if only God could give me a debilitating disease to prevent such a longshot from happening. Perhaps polio would prevent me from walking in the woods and getting mauled by a bear? One can only hope, I suppose.J.E.T. said:
Our politicians announce their religion immediately and last election had major Republican candidates announcing joyously that they don't agree with Evolution. George Bush Sr. stated that Atheists aren't true Americans as well. George W. Bush played out the Iraq war with an "Our God" vs. "The Evil-doers God" situation.Skeleon said:
The problem with your idea is that you believe that I think harm must be done to reduce the chance of a greater harm that only "could" occure if you examine the ordinary life you live what "could" happen your life is pointless you would spend you time worrying about the possibilities of cancer, shootings, and other possible outcomes in your life wich is not my point. If say you were going to go, say, to a drag race and sit in the passenger seat with a friend and then that friend's car explode and kill him if you had a sickness that kept you out of this situation and were cured from later would you not think that better than death in the fire?
A generalization and a blanket statement. Religion also does incredible amounts of good in the right hands. Look at Mother Theresa, or John Paul II. Sure, it can be abused, but anyone willing to take advantage of religion to abuse it for a cause would get the short stick after death, no?Cliff_m85 said:
Stuck my thoughts in bold.Frequen-Z said:I do not believe anyone should live in fear of a vengeful God. That's the Old Testament God. He's much nicer now
I do not believe you need to believe in a higher power to have morals. Of course. We religious folk believe that God made us with free will: we can choose to do wrong, or even deny his existence.
I do not believe there was a guy 2000 years ago who came back from the dead. Your perogative, mate.
I do not believe there is an all loving god who would send you to burn for eternity if you sin. I like to think of Hell like Dante's Inferno: you have to choose and accept it, and shun God.
I do not believe putting my hands together and wishfully thinking to previously mentioned 2000 year old man will have effect on whatever outcome my thoughts were trying to sway. Well, once again your perogative. You can always just ask the big G himself, you know. There's an old tale about how a priest converted a gambling town: he convinced them that they might as well hedge their bets. I think this is something similar.
Sorry for any and all offence, that's just how I see things.You're just stating your opinion. No harm no foul.
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It is sort of surreal, isn't it?
It's a lot to think about.
It's a curious question to ask as to where we all come from.
I believe our minds too feeble to handle such information if given it.
So is there a god? Gods? Where and how did we begin? Why did we begin? Why is the planet here supporting our life?
I suppose that's where the stories of God, a higher power come from and where beliefs of the lack thereof.
I suppose we all require closure that can never fully come, because, I believe we will never know. We'll wind up extinct before we do.
It's a good question though that brought up a lot in my head. I, myself, am not religious by any means. It'd be far too much on my plate to start learning now about Jesus and the trials he'd been through (which I'm sure were great) and even then, the super-natural doesn't sit right with me; always been more of a "when you die, it's over" type.
It's a lot to think about.
It's a curious question to ask as to where we all come from.
I believe our minds too feeble to handle such information if given it.
So is there a god? Gods? Where and how did we begin? Why did we begin? Why is the planet here supporting our life?
I suppose that's where the stories of God, a higher power come from and where beliefs of the lack thereof.
I suppose we all require closure that can never fully come, because, I believe we will never know. We'll wind up extinct before we do.
It's a good question though that brought up a lot in my head. I, myself, am not religious by any means. It'd be far too much on my plate to start learning now about Jesus and the trials he'd been through (which I'm sure were great) and even then, the super-natural doesn't sit right with me; always been more of a "when you die, it's over" type.
May I point out some parts from the Bible? This is who the Bible says you should kill:Skeleon said:
-Homosexuals (Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-32)
-Adulterers (Lev.20:10, Deut.22:22)
-Disobedient children (Deur.21:20-12, Lev.20:9, Exod.21:15)
-Women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut.22:13-21)
-All non-Christians (Parable told by Christ in Luke.19:27)
-Those accused of wickedness by at least two people (Deut.17:2-7)
-Anyone who works on the Sabbath (Exod.35:2-3, Num.15:32-6)
(You're not even allowed to kindle a fire, and the emergency services aren't excluded either!)
And before anyone says 'But that's the Old Testament!', according to Christ in Matt.10:35-6 all of the Old Testament's laws still apply.
I could go on to point out what the Bible says about Women, marriage, justice and so on, but I digress. If this is what the holy book Christians follow has in it, you can place the blame with religion itself.
Edit:
It's not free will though, because if you don't believe in God unconditionally, you'll be sent to Hell where you be TORTURED forever. It's not a choice, it's an ultimatum. It's the sort of 'choice' a criminal gives you when he places a gun to your head and says 'give me your wallet, and I won't shoot you!'
I won't agrue that. The theory itself was presented by a monk before Hubble ran with it. And mathematically the Big Bang is technically accurate to a point. That point being the Singularity.Maze1125 said:
I've said this sort of thing many times before. Faith is good, religious zealotries, not so much.
Having faith in some form of a higher power doesn't hurt. And it doesn't matter what you call it. God, Jehovah, YHWH, Allah, Mishra, Buddah, etc etc etc. As long as you feel the desire to pay heed to one of those beings, or any other, nameless or otherwise, where is the harm.
The donctrinations of man however, have spoiled religion.
Faith in and of itself is humanity's attempt to mentally rationalize what the heart and soul have already figured out. There are so many things in this universe, that yes of course can be explained by science, but what put that science or logic to figure it out there into place.
Galileo himself once stated that every time he looked through his telescope at the stars he could see the power of the creator at work.
The whole problem here, is the modern world we live in, tells us religion is stupid. People are starting to rely too heavily on logic while ignoring where the possibilities for it came from. Science is our new god, except the gifts that it provide come with no moral teachings; from others or within yourself.
I believe personally in a higher power, regardless of the name, not for reasons of fear or upbringing, but because seeing the things that I have been able to see in my short life on this world have given me cause to. Take a moment if you will to look at the wonders of this planet alone, and then go even further, and then you'll understand why I believe.
Having faith in some form of a higher power doesn't hurt. And it doesn't matter what you call it. God, Jehovah, YHWH, Allah, Mishra, Buddah, etc etc etc. As long as you feel the desire to pay heed to one of those beings, or any other, nameless or otherwise, where is the harm.
The donctrinations of man however, have spoiled religion.
Faith in and of itself is humanity's attempt to mentally rationalize what the heart and soul have already figured out. There are so many things in this universe, that yes of course can be explained by science, but what put that science or logic to figure it out there into place.
Galileo himself once stated that every time he looked through his telescope at the stars he could see the power of the creator at work.
The whole problem here, is the modern world we live in, tells us religion is stupid. People are starting to rely too heavily on logic while ignoring where the possibilities for it came from. Science is our new god, except the gifts that it provide come with no moral teachings; from others or within yourself.
I believe personally in a higher power, regardless of the name, not for reasons of fear or upbringing, but because seeing the things that I have been able to see in my short life on this world have given me cause to. Take a moment if you will to look at the wonders of this planet alone, and then go even further, and then you'll understand why I believe.
Mother Teresa forced baptisms of the dying in Calcutta as well as prevented the dying from seeing their loved ones before expiring. Add that the medical treatment in Calcutta under Mother Teresa was woefully inept, so woefully inept that other hospitals had better care. Teresa was quoted as saying that their misery 'enlightened her'. Religion helps my arse. Add that she publically denounced divorce but told Princess Diana after her divorce that she hoped her life was now better. I could go on with her nonsense, like taking money from known genocidists and pronouncing them 'good people'.scotth266 said:A generalization and a blanket statement. Religion also does incredible amounts of good in the right hands. Look at Mother Theresa, or John Paul II. Sure, it can be abused, but anyone willing to take advantage of religion to abuse it for a cause would get the short stick after death, no?Cliff_m85 said:
Stuck my thoughts in bold.Frequen-Z said:I do not believe anyone should live in fear of a vengeful God. That's the Old Testament God. He's much nicer now
I do not believe you need to believe in a higher power to have morals. Of course. We religious folk believe that God made us with free will: we can choose to do wrong, or even deny his existence.
I do not believe there was a guy 2000 years ago who came back from the dead. Your perogative, mate.
I do not believe there is an all loving god who would send you to burn for eternity if you sin. I like to think of Hell like Dante's Inferno: you have to choose and accept it, and shun God.
I do not believe putting my hands together and wishfully thinking to previously mentioned 2000 year old man will have effect on whatever outcome my thoughts were trying to sway. Well, once again your perogative. You can always just ask the big G himself, you know. There's an old tale about how a priest converted a gambling town: he convinced them that they might as well hedge their bets. I think this is something similar.
Sorry for any and all offence, that's just how I see things.You're just stating your opinion. No harm no foul.
If god is 'much nicer now', that isn't saying much. It's like a battered wife stating "he doesn't hit me that much anymore".
Add that your support of the archaic "hedge your bets" is nonsensical at best and immoral at worst. If I believe in god just to hedge my bets, I think he'd know. Add that if you believe in god just to hedge your bets you waste most of your life believing in nonsense and spreading it to others.