BioWare Co-Founder Accuses JRPGs of Stagnation

[Georgeman]

Considering that a CRAPLOAD of genres haven't exactly evolved dramatically, I call bullshit to this. Also Dragon Age, as well as KotOR and Mass Effect, went through some very predictable Bioware motions.

I have to laugh at the comment "JRPGs have fallen behind their western equivalents". Yes, assuming they were selling crap they would have indeed, but what's this? Mass Effect sold 2 million in 2 years and Dragon Age sold 1.2 million in about 1.5 months? What about Final Fantasy XIII? Oh yes, 1 million in 1 day just in Japan as a PS3 exclusive, no less.

And even Oblivion and Fallout sold about 4 millions each while being released on three platforms none the less. For all their supposed superiority, Western Rpgs don't really seem to sell all that much better.

I don't like berating Bioware because I loved KotOR and Jade Empire, but they really should face the truth before accusing others of similar behaviour.

 

[Illogicalmind]

Considering that a CRAPLOAD of genres haven't exactly evolved dramatically, I call bullshit to this. Also Dragon Age, as well as KotOR and Mass Effect, went through some very predictable Bioware motions.

I have to laugh at the comment "JRPGs have fallen behind their western equivalents". Yes, assuming they were selling crap they would have indeed, but what's this? Mass Effect sold 2 million in 2 years and Dragon Age sold 1.2 million in about 1.5 months? What about Final Fantasy XIII? Oh yes, 1 million in 1 day just in Japan as a PS3 exclusive, no less.


And even Oblivion and Fallout sold about 4 millions each while being released on three platforms none the less. For all their supposed superiority, Western Rpgs don't really seem to sell all that much better.

I don't like berating Bioware because I loved KotOR and Jade Empire, but they really should face the truth before accusing others of similar behaviour.

They've fallen behind their western equivalents in the... well, West. I never properly looked up the statistics, so can anyone tell me how WRPGs do in Japan? Might offer some insight into cultural taste and difference.

 

[Doug]

I always ask people who bash JRPGs to provide recent examples of ones they've played which they didn't enjoy, and of course they can never do it because they don't actually play any. They only do it because it's the done thing nowadays and because they lack the emotional maturity to form and discuss their own opinions. So, any takers?

I give them a chance. Something somewhere turns me away from them though...

Tales of Vesperia: I'll admit, Yuri's an ass and he's hilarious, especially when it comes to his win poses and Estelle is in the party. But other than that, I found the game quite underwhelming; I couldn't get into the combat system, even when I did get far enough to unlock everything that was possible, and I don't understand how my online friends love it so much.

Eternal Sonata: I played the demo and loved it. I liked how the combat system played out (namely the light vs dark and "beat" mechanics, other than that it was quite system) and the characters were more or less likable. I got the full game, but it didn't intrigue as much as the demo did for whatever reason.

Rogue Galaxy: An action RPG where you control the characters every move almost always gets brownie points from me, but even in this game I found the fights tedious and boring. Not to mention that fighting itself actually became a bit of a chore, especially with the random encounters.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Don't get me started on this one...

All right... my illness is kicking back up, so I'm gonna go skulk to my bed and build up my character in ME some more.

Like SageRuffin, I have a list: Blue Dragon, Chrono Trigger, and Mario and Luigi - Bowser's inside story. All JRPGs, all tried by me, all hated by me (tried to like the Mario one and all its fun story, but no, its just...ergh). Oh, and one of the old Final Fantasty's on a SNES emulator. Again, hated by me.

So no Harhol, I'm not bashing it out of ignorance. Other Japanese games I've tried (and hated) include Metal Gear Solid 2, and judging from what I saw of MGS 1 around my friends house when I was younger, it was also not my thing.

Japanese games I've liked - most of the Mario's... And there are probably more, but I don't normally check and see if the developer is Japanese or not.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Don't get me started on this one...

Oh god, I'd forgotten about that one. Starts off alright, and then grinds you down into pulp.

 

[polygon]

Next at 11:00: BioWare co-founder accuses sky of being blue.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I have to say, Bioware isn't the only one saying that -
http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/red/how-to-fix-jrpgs/30-18940/

Wow. The Tales series kinda fixed, you know...all of those.

1. No Random Encounters (Symphonia and after). Come to think of it, random encounters are kinda going out these days...
2. ...wait. Why is not having everyone speak every single line in the game a complaint again? Also, Dawn of the New World added voice acting to the C-skits.
3. Tales still has some great stories (and that person points out Persona 4, specifically).
4. Real-time combat. Gets better every game.
5. I think the only time I ever had to grind was a duel with my worst character against an optional boss.

 

[Tarkand]

I always ask people who bash JRPGs to provide recent examples of ones they've played which they didn't enjoy, and of course they can never do it because they don't actually play any. They only do it because it's the done thing nowadays and because they lack the emotional maturity to form and discuss their own opinions. So, any takers?

Heh, I can't even find the 'point' where I stopped liking JRPGs.

I loved Final Fantasy when I was younger (on the NES and SNES), then I got FFVII, which really didn't do much for me. Didn't like FFVIII, LOVED FFIX, was okay about FFX and FFX-2. Played the Xenosaga games, Grandia, Breath of Fire, Dragon Quests, etc... and then at some point when the next big JRPG came around my reaction was huge 'meh'.

Just felt to me like they were repackaging the same game with a few changes. I suppose the same can be said of many WRPGs, but somehow the illusion of choice (WRPG: It's my story vs JRPG: This is the story of a guy I happen to control in between cutscene) makes me come back. I also by far like the gameplay element of WRPG (Be they Fallout, Bioware game, Oblivion, etc) much more than JRPGS for some reason. (You can usually tell fairly easily from gameplay alone weither a game is J or W).

And also, maybe it's just me growing old and cynical, but even the art style of JRPG is starting to get on my nerve.

 

[AgentNein]

Really, this is a personal bias coming out here. There's this western idea that a good rpg presents large amounts of choice to the player. Because the western rpg sets it's values in providing the closest approximation to a pen and paper game that it can, albeit with fancy shmancy graphics. This is the primary objective of the western rpg!!!

When one mistakenly assumes that this should therefore be the primary objective of ANY rpg, then we can see why he sees the J-rpg market as stagnant while the W-rpg market is progressive.

The flaw in his thinking is of course that J-rpgs primary objective is not to successfully recreate a pen and paper rpg. Yes it's called an RPG, because the original J-rpgs were influenced by the pen and paper rpgs. It's taken a drastically different evolution however (as we all see). The objective of the J-rpg is to tell an interesting, unique, dramatic story most often set in an exotic world, while giving us some interesting new gameplay concepts. So instead of emulating the pen and paper rpg, the j-rpg is instead emulating say, a good fantasy novel, with strategic and fresh gameplay thrown in.

Taken this way, the j-rpg is just as progressive as the w-rpg, just in a very different way. Keep in mind that J-rpg fans are at home with some form of turn-based gameplay. It's not stagnant if it's an identifier and incentive to fans of the genre.

Random battles however....well I just can't defend that.

 

[Georgeman]

They've fallen behind their western equivalents in the... well, West. I never properly looked up the statistics, so can anyone tell me how WRPGs do in Japan? Might offer some insight into cultural taste and difference.

From what I know only Jade Empire and Mass Effect have been released on Japan which have sold crap (Jade Empire sold less than 10000 apparently and Mass Effect has sold about 30000). As for Bethesda games, both Fallout 3 and Oblivion have each sold about 150k copies there.

 

[Illogicalmind]

They've fallen behind their western equivalents in the... well, West. I never properly looked up the statistics, so can anyone tell me how WRPGs do in Japan? Might offer some insight into cultural taste and difference.

From what I know only Jade Empire and Mass Effect have been released on Japan which have sold crap (Jade Empire sold less than 10000 apparently and Mass Effect has sold about 30000). As for Bethesda games, both Fallour 3 and Oblivion have each sold about 150k copies there.

Ah, thank you very much! I had a sinking suspicion that would be the case. Again, thank you.

 

[Georgeman]

They've fallen behind their western equivalents in the... well, West. I never properly looked up the statistics, so can anyone tell me how WRPGs do in Japan? Might offer some insight into cultural taste and difference.

From what I know only Jade Empire and Mass Effect have been released on Japan which have sold crap (Jade Empire sold less than 10000 apparently and Mass Effect has sold about 30000). As for Bethesda games, both Fallour 3 and Oblivion have each sold about 150k copies there.

Ah, thank you very much! I had a sinking suspicion that would be the case. Again, thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[theultimateend]

JRPG status:

[..] not told
[X] told

I freaking love Bioware... On a side note, it will be interesting to see if FF XIII can prove them wrong...

...

I know it is my own personal opinion just as he has his, but I'm hard pressed to see the unique quality of western RPGs. I've played a ton and most of them lose my interest about the time I become ultra human, which isn't that far in. "I am now sporting two lightsabers and the ability to crush stars with my taint...fear me."

JRPGs don't offer much in the way of open-ended story lines or sandbox game play. Most RPG gamers seem to concede at least that point in my experience...

The open ended story has been far from perfected.

As it stands it is just a close ended story with lots of secret missions. Which is the major difference between the two genres. One has few secret extra missions and the other has tons.

I like Western RPGs but all of them that I have played have had extremely linear stories that are masked behind a bunch of alignment nonsense and filler. Just so happens I don't mind either of those things. Just like to acknowledge they are there.

He's mainly accusing JRPGs of not giving choice or options.

In most JRPGs, you just follow the story being told and while you do get to play around and kill stuff, your action have very little consequence on the story - even when you save the day. You didn't save the day because of your clever plan, you did it because well, that's what is supposed to happen.

In most WRPG, your choice can change the world somewhat.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that. Anyway, is he wrong in his observation? Possibly. But he's just offering his opinion from his own experience. JRPGs have indeed lost a lot of steam in the West. But, to each his own. No matter what someone says, there are going to be JRPG lovers everywhere.

Everything that isn't a shooter has lost steam in the west. I blame the last presidential run. Got everyone wanting to stick their genitals into their firearms (or vice versa for gun toting women).

I guess he has a problem with Coca-Cola as well. Same stagnating, unchanging formula. People who love it for that very -reason be DAMNED.-
I like jrpg's for those very reasons. Just like we go to see action movies or thrillers and they all follow the same formula. They can be awesome and original, but they boil down to hero overcomes impossible odds to win in the final fight scene, or hyper-sensitive detective overcomes all odds and finds the killer thru a series of luck and -unrealistic proficiency.
I like jrpg's and wrpg's, but saying the jrpg's are stagnating is like saying choice based conversation systems are cliched, or leveling up thru xp is SO 20 years ago.

That soda reference was really good. You think that up on the fly or has that been on your belt for a while? (Not Sarcasm)

Yeah I just thought of that out of nowhere. And I dont even LIKE coke, but pepsi doesn't have the same following so although it is awesome, it would weaken my point. Thanks for the not sarcasm tag. I would've been wondering why you were offended and sarcastic if you didnt put that there. /honesty

I had to clarify because after I wrote it I noticed that without verbal inflection it was going to come off as me being pissy when I was really just impressed by how solid the point was .

 

[sanzo]

and he wouldn't be wrong either. Stagnation is primarily what's wrong with JRPG's, no enhanced story interactivity and the same basic play structure since the SNES days is something that plagues pretty much all of them. Only the SMT games have really been able to break the mold.

I think he should start playing Megami Tensei games. Otherwise, he is correct.

Pretty much this. Pick up any of the recent or, hell, even the old SMT games and try to tell me they aren't good. I heartily recommend Devil Survivor for the DS or Persona 4 for the ps2

 

[silentsentinel]

Well, it's like he's accusing water of being wet.

 

[Voltano]

From what I heard Anime in Japan (and it's sub branches, like Visual Novels/JRPGs) work as an important story-telling device in Japan like movies or literature here in the U.S.A.. There are some innovative stories that do come out from Anime in Japan, though most that do get ported to U.S.A. are filled with big-eyed loli-girls, mostly. "Parasite" is a good example of a really deep story on human's reactions to an alien race--one that start off as killers, but were ignorant when they arrived to our planet (a good read if anyone that likes Mangas, though is really gory for some).

I don't like JRPGs much here simply because how they place emphasis on story first. Sure if it is a good story (like a "Legacy of Kain" story) then I can enjoy sitting there doing nothing while I watch the cut-scene play out. However the story has to be interesting to me for that to happen, and I loaded up the game to play game.

Honestly I grow tired of Bioware games as much as JRPGs: The story keeps butting into the game. I haven't beaten any Bioware game here and I own quite a few. The "game" part of them is fun, but the sifting through dialog or pampering my companions just leave me confused on whether Bioware is trying to be a JRPG developer.

I think it just depends on the culture really. JRPGs are "stagnant" because they are popular in Japan--kind of like how FPS' are "stagnant" here ever since "Wolfenstein 3-D". If the formula works for people to enjoy it still, why change it?

 

[Donrad]

i guess it is kinda like you played one you played 'em all.
And its nice to see Zeschuk of all people to say this.

 

[MarsProbe]

I guess he has a problem with Coca-Cola as well. Same stagnating, unchanging formula. People who love it for that very -reason be DAMNED.-


That soda reference was really good. You think that up on the fly or has that been on your belt for a while? (Not Sarcasm)

Actually, I think that's actually a rather lousy metaphor, if you ask me. Nobody expects Coca-Cola to change its flavour. People know what Coke tastes like and that's why you keep drinking it (provided you actually like it that is). Some change in a particular genre over time isn't too much to expect though, I think.

As Doug above also said, the other thing that bugs me about JRPGs is the employment of kids as the principal characters. Although I can't say I minded it in The World Ends With You, seeing that the focus of that game was partly the whole culture of Shibuya, it seems that regardless of whether the characters are soldiers, space officers or the like, they tend to be people who would normally be consider to be to young for the job. Or any job for that matter. I wouldn't know myself if it is a cultural thing or something to do with the intended target audience for the games....

Gosh, reading this thread, it looks like calling out Bioware for making games that follow a similar template has become the new "Dances with Wolves...in Space". Or is it the other way around. I forget which one came first.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Though the abilirty to see what your character's armor and weapons look like, the ability to actually have a say in the story rather than following something linear would be nice. I perfer JRPGS for their stories, not really their game play ( though THAT does help alot).

Thats where JRPGS excel. Their plot and setting. In most WRPGs, they take place in either medieval times or is the distant future. JRPGs usually have a unique setting as well as plot ( Usually at least. So in a way, as long as their stories and setting continue to be original, they don't need to evolve.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

BioWare: Truth in darkness.

I love these guys. Their games, their concepts, their ideas. They're pretty much bang on with this too.

While JRPGS may not be the most invetive sub genre at this point Bioware can't say anything as in fair play one of their RPGs you have played them all as they do go back to same old formula over and over again which is what he is complaing about JRPGs of doing.

This isn't a bad thing as they make good games but it is such a hypocritical thing to say.

 

[Sparrow]

BioWare: Truth in darkness.

I love these guys. Their games, their concepts, their ideas. They're pretty much bang on with this too.

While JRPGS may not be the most invetive sub genre at this point Bioware can't say anything as in fair play one of their RPGs you have played them all as they do go back to same old formula over and over again which is what he is complaing about JRPGs of doing.

This isn't a bad thing as they make good games but it is such a hypocritical thing to say.

They're a company though. A fairly young company.

JRPG's are a fucking genre for crying out loud.