Is this right, or even legal?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'd have refused point blank. They can't force you into doing manual labour as a punishment, only a court can do that.

Seriously, I'd have told them to jog the fuck on!

And to answer your question, as far as I know. No it isn't legal and I really don't think the punishment is either fitting or proportionate to the crime. Detention would have sufficed.

Well if he refused couldn't they have expelled his ass? That'd make it pretty hard to get in to another school at any rate...

Besides that if it's classified as community service, and yes they could push it because he did commit a real crime... Well then wouldn't it be legal? Would you rather have him sent to juvenile hall/detention/jail? I'd rather take the in school community service and not have a pre-adulthood crime on my record.

Good luck with that. Expelling a student because they refused to do manual labour. I'd have had them in a court before they could apologise.

And no, again, a court is the only thing that can hand out community service as a punishment for a crime. Detention would have done just fine.

They could have expelled him for stealing, and still pressed charges. So that point is moot. Also read my previous post about expressing my transgenderism at school, schools have a lot of leeway. All said and done if anyone had pressed the issue the end result would have been worse for the kid.

 

[Riicek]

I don't know why this is even a question. If crying has become a way to make someone feel remorse for handing out a punishment the crying person rightly deserved, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

I think you just made the most sane and concise comment on this whole thread. I can't believe how many here are treating this as unfair punishment.

Too bad it's 5 pages in and no one will read it.

I read it.

But then, I skipped from page 1 to 5, to see if Mr. Deckard had succeeded in starting an argument over a statement like "stealing isn't inherently wrong." I imagine the phrase "don't feed the trolls likely sums up pages 2-4. ;-)

 

[Jumplion]

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

Agreed with all your EDITS. All these posts I've read really baffle me more then any other topic I read on. These comments made about the kid that he deserved it, how the child learned his lesson by crying at the end spite just wanting his mom, how the punishment was called for-

[HEADING=1]NO[/HEADING]

Let me tell you something. Kids are usually spoiled or have a bad behavior to begin with. However, this child clearly did a very minor thing. Stealing is wrong, but he only stole a can. Rather then trying to talk with him or see if he can receive help in any way- they just decided to punish him with cleaning half the school's bathrooms up including toilets. What lesson will he learn? That no one gives a crap about his life thus he has to do hard labor for something that should of been at least a 'slap on the hand'.

See, from what I am reading... is that these Users who are posting against the child do not have any idea what it's like to be in his shoes. They are so use to kids being spoiled, that they throw this child into the same category. This is EXACTLY why he's being the way he is... because no one cares. Everyone is bashing on the kid, giving him a harder time then he already has with his parents. You don't understand how it feels like having your father abandon you, and a mother being such a horrible influence when you're that young.

And for those who would like to debate about justice being served- let's do a bit of math here. The can probably cost at least a dollar. So he stole $1 off school property. His punishment will consume hours to complete. Minimum wage jobs in America pay $8 an hour. So not only is the punishment very harsh, but he's being ripped off. It's like giving a shop lifter who stole a piece of cake 10 years in prison. Really? Come on guys you're not being considerate (sorry to say). Not to mention about him just drinking water- it's not about him being so thirsty with common sense. It's that he has gotten a personality influenced by his parents that he is now acting up in bad manners. You cannot prove to me that you resisted any influence by your parents- in a good way or bad way.

Somehow, this really gets to me. Seeing these careless posts about how the child deserved the punishment, how it's okay for the school to give him that for stealing just a can. He could of stolen more, along with cussing/being a brat. But he wasn't! He cried, wanting his mom, wanting someone to care and love him. There's a difference between wanting attention to stand out or seeking attention because you have nothing else in life. Simple as that... so please if you debate against me, consider why you are doing so. First picture yourself in this kid's shoes... how having a father who left you, then a mother who acts nothing like a mother... is going to motivate you doing good in any way at that age. I stand on the kid's side and would of loved being his friend to help.

There are probably other posts in this thread, but after 5 pages of this stuff, this is the most convenient.

If the kid was crying for his goddamn mom, then she shouldn't be scrubbing down the bathrooms, he needs fucking help. This punishment will not make him not do it anymore, it doesn't teach him anything, and it doesn't get into the root of his problems. This helps nobody. This doesn't "straighten him out", all it does is make him more pissed and more likely to shoot up the bathroom stalls rather than respect a goddamn can.

This kid needs help, and making him do janitorial work as if that's the only thing he'll be good for in life won't teach him a thing.

EDIT: Not to mention the school time he missed just to clean toilets. That'll really help his educational career. Even if the kid hated school, it'd still be a better waste of time than career training for janitorial service.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

-Snip-

Does he need emotional and moral support? Hell yes!

Is his broken home a good enough excuse to let a real world crime off easy? NO!

It could have been handled better in only one real way, that would have been to have real talk with him. Still a 1 pound can of soda, or a 40 pound note from the register, it's still theft. In the real world that kind of thing can land you with hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of fines, which translate to either jail, or a ton of community service. This was at least a good example to the kid that this is how the real world works. Still someone should have sat down with him and given him a long talk, and a shoulder to cry on. Also to your point, try being transgendered, even with both parents I went through hell.

 

[AzureRaven]

That punishment is definitely a bit much. Seriously? And to the people who think he deserves it...seriously? Is stealing wrong? Duh, of course it is. But what's this gonna teach him? NOTHING. It enforces his own idea that his life is shit. You know what's more effective? Gradually increasing punishment. As an offense right off the bat for a kid in that situation? That's completely insane. You need to start with something lighter and then increase the punishment and then they get the idea that they better not push their luck. You do that right off the bat then they just want to get even and will try it again. And you really don't have a right to punish him until you at least try and help him first. By doing this you're dismissing him as a lost cause and that he really will be screwed. Now he's convinced that since he can't turn his life around, that he needs to get better at being sly. And one way or another, losing parents isn't cool. Not everyone has nerves of steel. That shit takes awhile to stop affecting you, depending on when it happened. For the record, I'm fine with even reasonable corporal punishment. But this is just stupid. The ignorance at work here astounds me. Well, I'm off to the angry dome I suppose.

 

[El Poncho]

Shouldn't he get free school lunches which will give him enough for a drink and food?

 

[Loner Jo Jo]

Legally, at least in the US, I see no problem with it. Students will often have to help the janitors after school. Actually, in some cases, because the child forms a bond with the janitor, it does improve their behavior somewhat. Now, I would argue that if he had to do this during the school, they shouldn't have pulled him out of class, but that's the teacher in me talking. And really, it's not all that unsafe to clean a toilet. They didn't tell him he had to clean it with his tongue, and so long as he follows basic hygiene and washes his hands frequently, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Now, you may say that's excessive, but think about it. Even if he didn't have the money, he could have asked another student to buy him one. Or even another teacher. I've known teachers to give kids a buck or two to buy lunch, and these kids did not have it as bad off as this boy.

Final point, you are leaving out a crucial detail. You said "detention has not worked for this boy." That obviously means he has acted out before. Sure, probably all of his misbehavior stems from his home life, but this isn't a first time offense. The school has to punish the student somehow. Yes, being a future educator myself, I can sympathize with this boy. If the school is at all worth a damn, he is probably seeing a counselor right now through the school system at the request of the social worker. The principal has to be the big bad wolf, but I'm sure, or at least, hope, he's getting the help he needs in other ways through other people.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Schools have been neutered on power recently, they really don't have any leeway.

But yea, pushing it would probably have ended badly in this instance. Still, I stand by the fact that no school would have made me clean toilets. Ever.

I was made to clean toilets the day I came to school dressed as a girl, part of cleaning the eighth grade wing of the school and all. I survived, and it wasn't the most horrible thing I could have been subjected to.

 

[SilentCom]

Well damn, it is rather unfortunate a situation isn't it? Personally I would pay for the drink for the kid so he doesn't have to receive such a crappy punishment and instead have him go to a councilor to sort some things out. Sounds like his life is sucking.

 

[FallenMessiah88]

Is it right: Hell no! Is it legal: Probably, but maybe it shouldn't be.

Yes, discipline is a good thing. It teaches kids to respect others and it also teaches them that for every action, there is a reaction, whether positive or negative.

With that being said though, this punishment just seems way too harsh, even if this had been a "normal" kid.

What this kid really needs is for someone to steer him in the right direction before things start to really take a turn for the worse.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

No. Punishment will obviously make no difference for the kid, what he needs in counseling.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Does he need emotional and moral support? Hell yes!

Is his broken home a good enough excuse to let a real world crime off easy? NO!

It could have been handled better in only one real way, that would have been to have real talk with him. Still a 1 pound can of soda, or a 40 pound note from the register, it's still theft. In the real world that kind of thing can land you with hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of fines, which translate to either jail, or a ton of community service. This was at least a good example to the kid that this is how the real world works. Still someone should have sat down with him and given him a long talk, and a shoulder to cry on. Also to your point, try being transgendered, even with both parents I went through hell.

I respect your post for admitting he should receive help, but there are some issues I find with other sources you pointed out. Yes, it does suck that your parents judged you along with making you go through harsh times because you are transgendered (which I have nothing against), but does that excuse what happened to him? Does that mean because perhaps you had it worse, that the kid's dramatic life doesn't matter?

Plus, reality is reality but it could be much better. Society is corrupted, and rather then giving him a fair warning or least doing something reasonable, they're making the child do very dirty labor in public adding onto humiliation without showing a bit of care for his reasons on why stealing just a can. Like I also mentioned, it's a child. If he was 18, stealing a car then yes your post is very accurate. However, he's younger and only stole a can that is cheaper then perhaps buying one pencil. He only stole it because there's nothing left for him to try and do. He's poor, (which isn't an excuse) BUT with such bad influencing parents... the source of the problem isn't the boy but his mother who drinks constantly while being a bad mother. You can't blame someone when they've got no one to help with their mentality in the first place.

So again, though I am actually sorry you faced a lot of issues, you should relate more with the child and understand his pain rather then thinking this punishment will actually help him. Imagine if a school made you clean up filthy bathrooms all because you're transgendered. That's messed up, you would agree yes? So same case, because it could be avoided and dealt with differently.

Here where I live, Nevada. If a kid commits the crime of theft, and said kid gets caught they are fined. Not just the amount of what the stole, but what ever the law prescribes the fine for such crimes to be. If I remember it right you can get a fine of hundreds or thousands of dollars for theft here. That translates to jail or hours upon hours of hours of community service.

What they actually did wasn't that horrible, he had to work for three hours to pay his debt, not 10 not 50 not 100 but a mere 3 hours. They could have done a lot worse to the kid, and I'm betting his broken family life helped him out in that respect. They could easily have had him arrested, pressed charges, and expelled him. They didn't they told him to pay off his debt to society, and he did. The shameful part was that on one gave him emotional support.

Now my parents were really good to me, but that didn't change the fact that my transgenderism made other people treat me like shit. I did have to clean toilets, and every thing else in the eight grade wing when I came to school cross dressed the first time. But despite my horrible social status I toughed it out, and I came back the next day in a skirt. Well the principal and dean both personally apologized to me, when they finally started to under stand, and the whole issue further complicated my school life. But I made do with what I had.

To be honest, with this kid he needs guidance, and a firm hand. Even the original poster said detention hadn't worked for him. That implies he had a lot of misbehavior in his past, and the more you act out like that, well the worse the punishments get. To an extent he did deserve it, but he deserved better too. The whole crux of the issue is that with out the discipline the emotional support is worthless, and visa versa. Still he pretty much got a slap on the wrist. His public display of tears was at the very minimum a cry for the attention he desperately needs. At the worst he was trying to gain sympathy with crocodile tears. Either way the punishment was fair, a lot more fair then he'd get in the real world. Still this school seems to lack guidance.

 

[The Lugz]

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons)

bad parenting
children should have what they need to complete a day's work, that includes at-least a bottle of water
( I've seen 6 packs for as little as 50p in some shops )


in my honest opinion theft of good/s pertaining to ones survival if you have no other option should come under benefit claims on the government unless they exceed standard social security benefits
this obviously isnt the case, but a child may well see it that way especially when other people have things he does not


if your school is physically 'forcing' a student to do 'anything'
( literally, they have no right to demand anything of any student )
they are in CLEAR violation of the law
also, as the old add-age goes two wrongs do not make a right
the mother of said child could and should sue them, for a hell of allot more than £1 especially in a case where he already has problems, and the school force him to do something that will make him snap
regardless of the fact she herself is not helping the issue

why are there no water fountains in this school?
the fluid requirements of a growing child is insane, every school I've been in has had at-least one free water fountain for this reason
a water fountain would cost around £200 to build, and can improve the performance of the students dramatically parched children do not learn


personally, I do not believe he acted inappropriately none of the adults that are supposed to be caring for him, at home or at the school were doing their job properly
he is a CHILD and by definition cannot look after himself properly
what is the expected result? honestly. it's baffling

at best this is negligence, at worst criminal negligence



>Insert Hyperbole mode

the proper course of action in my little world would be to send the child into foster care, with regular checks where he would hopefully be looked after better
and both his parents should be permanently sterilized, with a really blunt object.
( really blunt, like a trowel. )
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&nord=1&q=trowel&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1136&bih=826&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10182328973697356213&sa=X&ei=inKXTpzDLYzDswaW8qyqBA&ved=0CD4Q8gIwAw
that blunt.

let's see society pump out thousands of neglected children if that's the punishment
I don't want a 'brat ban'
I want a 'dipstick parent ban'

it's such a shame I don't rule the world..
I wouldn't be tooo draconian... that often.

/Hyperbole mode

 

[stinkyrobot]

There's a difference between being afraid to do something, because you'll be punished and understanding that it's wrong.I know that if I had been that kid I would have been resentful to the people who punished him and may have evan done something rash to get back at them.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

But that didn't change the fact that my transgenderism made other people treat me like shit.

Don't you see the resemblance to this issue? Everyone at that kid's school (especially those in charge) placed him to do labor in filthy restrooms for however long it took. He's getting crap from anyone, and no parents to turn to for moral support at all. He's only acting this way because everyone gives him crap, thus no parents to motivate him doing good. Also, 3 hours isn't enough because depending on the bathroom's conditions- they can take so much longer. Why do you think custodians never have bathrooms cleaned more often? Because it gets awfully bad real fast and so time consuming to get all cleaned up.

Besides that, making him do this shall not help anyone out. It does not help, nor will make him toughen up with high spirits. Think of it this way: You dressed up the same next day in a dress. That's cool plus you got them to apologize, but here's the thing... he'll repeat the same actions too. If cleaning the bathroom didn't stop you, what makes you think this will do any good?

It wasn't like he was thinking "Oh man, they are making me clean up the bathrooms. I've learned a valuable lesson, so I should study real hard and get a good education." No, he was thinking, "I just want my mom's love! All I did was steal a soda can, yet they have the balls to make me clean up ALL these bathrooms?! I'll show them... I'll be more clever next time. It's not like anyone's going to care for me, so why should I stop?!" See... it's just making him realize that life's unfair to him.

P.S: That's how your system works where you live. I don't agree with it, plus I find it to be absurd. Not much better here in America nether... a lot of justice systems even for small cases like these are not qualified at all. People do not understand life but feel it's best to make a punishment due to 'Look, I got better things to do. Don't mess with us again, so do this awful forsaken labor to learn a lesson.' Not going to help anyone.

Nevada is one of the States in the United States...

Usually community service helps in this way: It tells you there is a consequence for breaking the law. Now mind you that's not going to stop a sociopath, but it enough to stop your typical Joe realize he done screwed up. The difference between me cross dressing and him stealing a soda on the other hand is... I was making a point. He was thirsty, didn't like the water, and was possibly demanding attention.

But like I said before the punishment teaches that there are consequences. But with out somebody sitting down with him, telling him it was wrong, and discussing with him why he did it... Well it's approaching pointless. On the other hand just the talking to him about why it's wrong, and why he did it, with no disciplinary action. That's useless too. You need both, especially for children.

It's not that I don't see your point, and you your self said it isn't enough... But cleaning a nasty bathroom isn't the end of the world. I know he needs some support and that right there is half the problem. Because he isn't getting any. He needs to know the consequences, and he needs to know what he did wrong. On top of that he needs some one to teach him, and that's where I believe this school messed up royally. The lazy part was the lack of personal involvement and guidance. As an adult you generally know when you screwed up, and that's why community service by it self is a good thing. As a kid however, you also need the guidance, and care of an adult to help give the situation context.

When I cross dressed at school, I made sure not to break the dress code. Technically I fallowed the rules, it was the misunderstanding that got me thrown under the bus. Doing it again was purely reinforcement of my point. Stealing the soda was a petty act that at it's very minimum was to get away with doing something bad, and/or a cry for attention.

I understand how he must feel, yes, but does that excuse his actions? No it doesn't, he needs some real support and that's the real truth. But stealing the soda needed to be punished as well. Discipline works in two ways, you need the punishment, and the guidance. Leaving out one or the other invalidates the whole process.

Being punished for cross dressing, well that was wrong, and mostly because of misunderstanding. But being punished for theft, well that's not just the right thing, it's the reality of the world. The misunderstanding was not giving guidance, and that was the laziness of the school. He's still young and needs to learn what, and why the laws are there for.

Did he deserve the punishment? Yes he did. Was that enough in it self? No! Absolutely not! He needs people to be there for him, to guide him, and support him. With out both he's got nothing, and he's not stupid, he knew what he did, and that it was wrong. He only got half of what was needed and that is the sad part. IF it was me I'd have started pulling Mr.Miyage style karate lessons on him. Teach him the value of his work, give him a skill, and be there when he needed me. I'm wholly against the lack of guidance, but the punishment was at least a step in the right direction.

Edit: Correcting for a half though that got written in. >.o;

 

[Denamic]

While the punishment is extreme but it did get the result. (I mean he won't be stealing again?) Overall however this probably wouldn't help him in the long run.

It'll almost certainly have the exact opposite effect.
I had a tough time growing up due to various reasons.
I would have no qualms about stealing a drink or two back then.
Were I faced with this kind of punishment, it'd only end up with an even worse outlook on life.
I'd probably just try harder to not get caught and would likely even branch out into vandalism for revenge.
In fact, that's pretty much exactly what happened.
I grew out of it, but this kid is much worse off than I was.
This kind of punishment does not work on kids.
Sure, it MIGHT keep him in behaving temporarily, but it will cause him to bottle up his hatred.
And that always works out well.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Clegane]The school are completely within their rights to issue that as a punishment.

But whether that is the right thing to do...

It was honestly half assed, with out guidance the punishment means nothing.