Poll: Suicide... Is it really our place to tell people whether or not to kill themselves?
- Thread starter Dusquad
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Things always get better.
Always.
More so on topic, yes, others should step in and try to talk loved ones out of committing suicide. What kind of society would we be if we didn't. It isn't "their decision to make" because they aren't mentally healthy enough to make that decision. A few days later and they might feel better. It's our duty as human beings to help others (especially our loved ones) when they are down and do everything we can to help them, even if it is against their will.
That's what I think.
Always.
More so on topic, yes, others should step in and try to talk loved ones out of committing suicide. What kind of society would we be if we didn't. It isn't "their decision to make" because they aren't mentally healthy enough to make that decision. A few days later and they might feel better. It's our duty as human beings to help others (especially our loved ones) when they are down and do everything we can to help them, even if it is against their will.
That's what I think.
It's their decision, but you may try to convince them with arguments to do otherwise.
I suppose it also has to do with the responsibities a person has. You can't walk out on your kids.
If a person has finished his responsibilities and paid his debts, then nothing may keep him or her.
I suppose it also has to do with the responsibities a person has. You can't walk out on your kids.
If a person has finished his responsibilities and paid his debts, then nothing may keep him or her.
You have the right because you're his best friend!Dusquad said:
His situation sounds horrible and I don't have the right to judge his decision, but you do because you care about him.
I think as long as you're doing as much as you possibly can to make his life better because you care about him (and you obviously do) you have a right to try to convince him not to kill himself. No-one wants to be told "life is pain, suck it up" but there's no reason why anyone WOULDN'T want to hear "you don't have nothing- you have me." So you did the right thing- but now you have to CONTINUE doing the right thing. You have an obligation to your friend now- he kept living because you asked him to, now you have to justify that decision for him.
On the other hand (don't worry, this is purely theoretical and doesn't apply to your situation) people who take a high-handed moral position and insist that "suicide is just wrong" but do nothing to relieve the suffering of others have absolutely no right to do so. If someone truly has nothing of worth left to live for and hate every moment of their life, then who the hell are you to insist that they continue to suffer pointlessly while you sit back in your comfy, pleasant life with your friends and family and watch them struggle just because suicide offends your moral sensibilities? The hypocrisy of some of these people is downright obscene.
We don't "owe" people we know anything either, although you're a lot closer here. We have to consider the effects that our deaths, ESPECIALLY from suicide would have on the people close to us and then weigh that against what kind of a person you are. I myself have contemplated suicide several times- but I would never actually do it, for the simple reason that my mother is still alive. And if I killed myself, it would destroy her. And since I couldn't do that, even though I know I wouldn't have to live with the guilt, I can't and won't commit suicide. But it's not an obligation. You just have to ask yourself if you hate your family and friends enough to hurt them like that. But a lot (not all, or even most, but a lot) of people are suicidal because they DON'T have family or friends who care about them. Who the hell are they staying alive for?
And SPARE ME the crap about "He should get his shit straight and solve his problems" or "If you need to find a home and food, a job, get a girlfriend". You make it sound like everyone who kills themselves is doing it because they're too lazy to put out a little effort. News flash, sir- some people's lives genuinely suck and they can't do anything about it. Getting a job isn't just a matter of deciding you want one, picking one off the net and showing up for your first day next morning. Getting a girlfriend isn't as simple as picking one out of a catalogue. Have YOU ever experienced the feeling of having absolutely no control over your own life and that everything you are doing is futile, no matter how you try? That you have nothing to look forward to but, at BEST, working decades in a crappy cubicle job until you get laid off in the next series of cutbacks, or doing physical labour until your back packs it in at the age of 50? So what are your suggestions for how the OP's friend should "solve his problems"? Should he hire a new mother? Put his dad into parent school to force him to not be such a worthless douche? Sue his grandparents on the grounds of Persistant Assholery? You're the man with the ideas, let's hear them!
Sorry if I'm coming across as biased or aggressive, but your post just smacked of a complete lack of sympathy or understanding coming from someone who's never been depressed enough to have a right to talk about suicide.
On the other hand (don't worry, this is purely theoretical and doesn't apply to your situation) people who take a high-handed moral position and insist that "suicide is just wrong" but do nothing to relieve the suffering of others have absolutely no right to do so. If someone truly has nothing of worth left to live for and hate every moment of their life, then who the hell are you to insist that they continue to suffer pointlessly while you sit back in your comfy, pleasant life with your friends and family and watch them struggle just because suicide offends your moral sensibilities? The hypocrisy of some of these people is downright obscene.
See, now that's bullshit. Moral obligations to society? What a load of crap. Unless you're living the good life, spending your welfare money on games, booze and pot, you don't owe society anything. Did we sign some kind of contract while we were in the womb?Circleseer said:
We don't "owe" people we know anything either, although you're a lot closer here. We have to consider the effects that our deaths, ESPECIALLY from suicide would have on the people close to us and then weigh that against what kind of a person you are. I myself have contemplated suicide several times- but I would never actually do it, for the simple reason that my mother is still alive. And if I killed myself, it would destroy her. And since I couldn't do that, even though I know I wouldn't have to live with the guilt, I can't and won't commit suicide. But it's not an obligation. You just have to ask yourself if you hate your family and friends enough to hurt them like that. But a lot (not all, or even most, but a lot) of people are suicidal because they DON'T have family or friends who care about them. Who the hell are they staying alive for?
And SPARE ME the crap about "He should get his shit straight and solve his problems" or "If you need to find a home and food, a job, get a girlfriend". You make it sound like everyone who kills themselves is doing it because they're too lazy to put out a little effort. News flash, sir- some people's lives genuinely suck and they can't do anything about it. Getting a job isn't just a matter of deciding you want one, picking one off the net and showing up for your first day next morning. Getting a girlfriend isn't as simple as picking one out of a catalogue. Have YOU ever experienced the feeling of having absolutely no control over your own life and that everything you are doing is futile, no matter how you try? That you have nothing to look forward to but, at BEST, working decades in a crappy cubicle job until you get laid off in the next series of cutbacks, or doing physical labour until your back packs it in at the age of 50? So what are your suggestions for how the OP's friend should "solve his problems"? Should he hire a new mother? Put his dad into parent school to force him to not be such a worthless douche? Sue his grandparents on the grounds of Persistant Assholery? You're the man with the ideas, let's hear them!
Sorry if I'm coming across as biased or aggressive, but your post just smacked of a complete lack of sympathy or understanding coming from someone who's never been depressed enough to have a right to talk about suicide.
@ Arcane Azmadi
I've been in a pretty dark place, and so have people I've known. Once you give in to depression, there is nearly no way back up. It is so hard to get back on your feet. And attitude is everything. You have to do all you can, and keep at it. It's a moral obligation - you owe it to yourself, and everyone you know. At a certain point in life I've decided that I didn't owe anyone anything. But it isn't true. There are always people that depend on you, people that you depend on... And you didn't sign a contract in the womb, but you didn't have to. You have been taken care of all your life, others deserve that too. I don't care if you agree or not.
The only way to get on with it is to snap out of that bullshit, and be hard on yourself. Determination is key.
And most of us will end up doing crappy cublicle jobs. Life isn't about that. It's about being the best person you can be. You work your way up and try be a good person, a good friend.
Merely giving up is childish and weak. You destroy far more than just yourself that way.
I've been in a pretty dark place, and so have people I've known. Once you give in to depression, there is nearly no way back up. It is so hard to get back on your feet. And attitude is everything. You have to do all you can, and keep at it. It's a moral obligation - you owe it to yourself, and everyone you know. At a certain point in life I've decided that I didn't owe anyone anything. But it isn't true. There are always people that depend on you, people that you depend on... And you didn't sign a contract in the womb, but you didn't have to. You have been taken care of all your life, others deserve that too. I don't care if you agree or not.
The only way to get on with it is to snap out of that bullshit, and be hard on yourself. Determination is key.
And most of us will end up doing crappy cublicle jobs. Life isn't about that. It's about being the best person you can be. You work your way up and try be a good person, a good friend.
Merely giving up is childish and weak. You destroy far more than just yourself that way.
Well it is their decision. But I do see it as an incredibly selfish thing to do. It's very rare that someone who kill themselves doesn't leave someone behind, wondering what they could have done to prevent it, how they'd missed the signs. I think people need reminding of what they have to lose, who they're leaving behind, as the despair seems to blind them to everything but themselves.
So I don't think we should be telling them what to do, but I think they need telling what effect they're going to have.
So I don't think we should be telling them what to do, but I think they need telling what effect they're going to have.
Well I've been on your friends side of the wall, ive been in that place where I wanted it all to end. And really I'm glad I had someone to stop me because if they hadn't I wouldn't be living the life I am now. If you really care about someone why would you let them do something awful like that? You should be there for them and help them fight through it and make something out of their lives doing something selfless to help others so they feel like they have a reason to keep fighting. Most people (including myself) who have considered or tried suicide don't really want to die, they just want an escape from their problems. Help him through this hard time and things could be a lot better in the future.
Its not about having the right. No one has that right to stop or push someone into suicide. The only reason some one would stop them, would be love or guilt or because its the right thing to do.
This, this, a thousand times this. Often, suicide is simply psychological pain. If someone's considering suicide, it's usually from a feeling of being alone. Help them to NOT feel alone and you've made a step towards saving that life and preventing psychological trauma to every person who's ever considered them a friend.RaphaelsRedemption said:
The government has no right to tell people they can't commit suicide, and I believe it's their duty to set up euthanasia clinics to ensure such situations are dealt with properly (like in Switzerland, although I don't know if the government itself runs the clinics). Obviously euthanasia clinics are for the terminally ill and those who are in a state of constant and dire pain.
As for the depressed, I think we should stop them from commiting suicide; they're not in the right frame of mind to make such a decision, and from their perspective it's the only way out. Someone on the outside who can look at the situation more objectively will be able to look at how to help them and whatnot. Ultimately though, it's our moral duty to intervene but it's never really our place to tell someone what to do with their lives. I'd say it's more our duty to put them in a frame of mind that lets them decide objectively.
As for the depressed, I think we should stop them from commiting suicide; they're not in the right frame of mind to make such a decision, and from their perspective it's the only way out. Someone on the outside who can look at the situation more objectively will be able to look at how to help them and whatnot. Ultimately though, it's our moral duty to intervene but it's never really our place to tell someone what to do with their lives. I'd say it's more our duty to put them in a frame of mind that lets them decide objectively.
I'm no expert on suicide but I do have depression. When I get into a really bad state I know in my head that the feeling will eventually pass. However try as I might I cant keep things in perspective. When the feeling gets really bad it's like there's no past and no future for me it just feels like there's nothing but an oppressive unendureable and unending pain. But like I said I DO get better so if the opportunity presents itself you should do what it takes to keep someone from killing themselves.
But at the same time I view the attitude that we have the right to decide if someone can kill themselves to be on the same level as the attitude that we have the right to decide that someone has to die. It's ultimately their choice whether they live or die. You can try to delay them and give them time to get some perspective but don't imprison them for the rest of their natural life, and dont force them to take medication that changes who they are without their consent. I believe that suicide is wrong but I also believe that forcing people into living the rest of their lives in pain is even worse.
But at the same time I view the attitude that we have the right to decide if someone can kill themselves to be on the same level as the attitude that we have the right to decide that someone has to die. It's ultimately their choice whether they live or die. You can try to delay them and give them time to get some perspective but don't imprison them for the rest of their natural life, and dont force them to take medication that changes who they are without their consent. I believe that suicide is wrong but I also believe that forcing people into living the rest of their lives in pain is even worse.
I...think you did the right thing. I have not have to have dealt with suicide in my life...but in telling him that you cared, I think you may have saved him. That is something to be proud of. I am not sure of suicide...but I believe we have the right to at least tell people how we feel about it. Not to flatly tell them 'SUCK IT UP MOVE ON', but tell them how we would feel. And, as mentioned, I think him telling you is a cry for help. Helping him to get through it all....you are a true friend.
I understand how one can get pretty pissed about this topic, especialy if you had to deal with it a lot in the past, and there are still some little shits who can't get it right. The way you're trying to get your point across, though, is not helping anybody - you're being far too aggressive about this, and 'childish' is definetly the wrong word.Circleseer said:
Anyways, I know for a fact that people who are kept from suicide for about a week or so (or saved after an attempt to kill themselves) are very very unlikely to try again. The thought of suicide is a temporary one, so you should protect someone from killing themselves in any case.
You (and everyone else) should do everything possible to help them and get them out of whatever depressing situation they happen to be in, but ultimately it's their choice to make.
Sometimes a smile, a person who will listen to them, or a nice invitation to a cup of coffee is all they need to stop themselves from going for it.
Sometimes a smile, a person who will listen to them, or a nice invitation to a cup of coffee is all they need to stop themselves from going for it.