Question of the Day, September 2, 2010

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Blackpapa

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May 26, 2010
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In today's RPGs death is balanced between being an annoyance and a punishment. This would have to be made completely over if a hard mode were to be introduced.

The goal of a hard mode is to increase the price of failure and add severe consequences to threatening actions.

This would only work in a world where the gradient between "Healthy as a horse" and "irreversibly dead" is rather large. In today's games you can have multiple hemorrhaging wounds, crushed organs, third degree burns, missing an eye and acute schizophrenia and as long as you have at least one hitpoint, you're fully capable of inflicting punishment, waging war and everything else.

A hardcore mode is only as good as long as the player fears the consequences of death but at the same time can blame only himself and his bad judgement for it and can have a limited certainty that good planning can prevent it. If death is cheap, you can afford to have cheap deaths. This works in the real world, as I have yet to see murder victims complaining about being killed by a cheap neighbourhood knife stab, but this kind of unfair attack would leave players raging behind their computers. This is the reason why PvP would have to get redesigned as well - making it more consequential, like in Eve Online. A world where some players are avoiding death at all costs and others are participating in a cycle of carefree PvP killing and respawning as if it was Quake Live will make for a very poorly designed world. PvP would have to be destructive - meaning high wages. To discourage normal players from ganking hardcore players, it would help if PvP with a hardcore player would be more dangerous and potentially costly to a normal player than if he'd PvP a "normal" player. Think mutually assured destruction.

A hardcore mode implies some tension is involved. Killing the player for a death outright is a simple, yet not a very thought out solution. Giving him temporary debuffs or reducing in level isn't much of a hardcore mode, neither is "one free death daily". I think much more tension would be created if the player would instead collapse and bleed, calling for help. Depending on the game design, the player would have from 15 minutes to an hour until he finally died, for real. Until that time, he'd have to call his friends, clanmates or random people on chat to revive him and carry him back to the dungeon exit. I believe that the choice here, as well as the pressure of the ticking clock and with the potential penalty in mind, would create perfect tension as well as encourage teamplay and expore the social part of MMORPGs.

It's not the pain of torture that makes it effective, it's the fear.
 

Remzer

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Jul 29, 2009
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It WOULD be great in a new kind of MMO, where cap level is fairly low (say, around 20), and where there are numerous and well-defined level-restricted PVP area. LEvel up goes fast to compensate for the frustration of dying and losing it all - in a couple weeks of regular playing, you can get to the level cap.

A persistent world, whose borders and areas are consistently being fought for by various player factions, would be well suited for this kind of game.

Big army clashes have actual lasting CONSEQUENCES, because if you die in that last battle to defend your realm, you are DEAD (although your character's prowess - or lack thereof - could be sung for generations...).

Anywho...

I kinda went around the question a little, but yeah, that'd be fun, I think, and much more relevant than the grind'n'grow FOR EVAH system on which most MMOs seem to be relying, these days.
 

EightGaugeHippo

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Apr 6, 2010
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People would go around with the soul intention of ruining the game for others. A really high level character would go to a low level area and murder everyone. People would get frustrated and stop playing/paying. Company wouldnt make money. BAd idea that would never happen.
 

Evilsanta

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Apr 12, 2010
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For people that like that sort of thing sure. But for me hell no! All the time i spent on a char wasted when i die.
 

Badabukavich

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Aug 28, 2009
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If you had a game like this most people would fall into two categories.

1. The conservatives who worked hard to get their character and wouldn't want to risk losing everything.

2. The griefers who would roam in packs and kill everyone in sight

Although it might work out if there was a way to store certain attributes or items that could be passed on to a new character.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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It would never work. PVP wouldn't be an option and raids would have to be made significantly easier since no one could afford progression.
 

MasterV

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Aug 9, 2010
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Nah, permadeath would suck horrible donkey balls. There are other, better ways to make an mmo more challenging. I saw a new MMO in E3 with a very interesting combat system if I'm not mistaken. That is good. Pemadeath is not.
 
Jun 11, 2008
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If there was a freakishly low level cap then fair enough but for something like a MMO or CO RPG like GW it would be the most fucking annoying thing ever especially for PvP. On one character alone I have over 4,000 deaths and deaths do carry a heafty penalty in GW which is a -15% of health and energy total. This accumulates up to 60% being more than a fair punishment.
 

Cynical skeptic

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Apr 19, 2010
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As a system to offer rewards for solo/small-group players who didn't want to do the whole guild thing, that protected you from any player not in "hardcore" mode ("you can't attack [player], he/she is too hardcore for you."), sure.

If it was just tacked on, no.
 

Frostbite3789

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Imagine you are off killing some mob, then all of a sudden four dudes show up and gank you for no reason. All that time suddenly just wasted at the fancy of four random dudes.

Perma-death in MMOs is a terrible idea.
 

fenrizz

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iLikeHippos said:
What's the point of putting down time and progress on a character if it can just die by a group/cheap shot?
Utterly motherfucking pointless. The idea is worse than super realism.
The griefing would be insane.

A band of max level players would mercilessly slaughter everyone.
I don't see the fun in that.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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The problem, which this thread mirrors, is that most everyone is viewing perma-death in the context of World of Warcraft and that's a mistake. The systems and mechanics that are in place for WoW do not support or compliment perma-death, hence the massive turn off that everyone associates with it. The MMOs that have had various degree of perma-death or consequential loss are built from the ground up with that goal in mind.

Would it be for everyone? Certainly not, but no more or less so than asking if you like any other specific game mechanic.
 

Echo136

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Feb 22, 2010
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I would never do that. I didnt do that on Torchlight. I didnt do that on Mythos. I would NEVER do that in an MMO. Putting a massive ammount of time into a character only having it to die and not even being allowed to take the gear with me really sucks. Id rather have my nipples chopped off.
 

The Great JT

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I would hate that. I'm against severe penalties like that (or things like experience/level loss, other players looting your corpse and stuff like that) in MMOs because I feel it punishes you for human error.
 

Blackpapa

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Cynical skeptic said:
As a system to offer rewards for solo/small-group players who didn't want to do the whole guild thing, that protected you from any player not in "hardcore" mode ("you can't attack [player], he/she is too hardcore for you."), sure.

If it was just tacked on, no.
I detest all forms of artificial gameplay barriers. Preventing the player from doing something he shouldn't by hard code is inelegant and hugely impacts the immersion. In an ideal world, artificual barriers like that are kept to a minimum, and a player doesn't do something not because his ksword turns into jelly in green zones, but because he will suffer the consequences, like being killed and robbed by guards. Again, Eve Online is an example of good design. Not the best, mind you, but still good.
 

SniperMacFox

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Jun 26, 2009
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When I voted, 156 people had chosen "It would be fun and challenging." All of you are MASOCHISTS!

I played the WoW free trial and managed to work myself up to level 16 over the course of about two weeks playing it every now and then. If after that I'd been killed and lost everything, I'd be a bit miffed.

If you are seriously telling me that you would happily level you way up to the limit in a MMORPG then just take it on the chin when you're killed and all of your work is gone?

Actually I take back my statement, you're either a buddhist or a masochist.
 

Cynical skeptic

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archont said:
I detest all forms of artificial gameplay barriers. Preventing the player from doing something he shouldn't by hard code is inelegant and hugely impacts the immersion. In an ideal world, artificual barriers like that are kept to a minimum, and a player doesn't do something not because his ksword turns into jelly in green zones, but because he will suffer the consequences, like being killed and robbed by guards. Again, Eve Online is an example of good design. Not the best, mind you, but still good.
There are no consequences on the internet. The best anyone can do is threaten a loss of investment (account suspension). Which is on about the same level as "go stand in the corner while I go talk to your mother, in the other room, on the other side of the building... God will punish you if you move!" Thus, "artificial" restrictions are required to keep things civil.

EVE isn't really an example of "permadeath" gameplay. Its high risk, but risk begets caution.
SniperMacFox said:
When I voted, 156 people had chosen "It would be fun and challenging." All of you are MASOCHISTS!

I played the WoW free trial and managed to work myself up to level 16 over the course of about two weeks playing it every now and then. If after that I'd been killed and lost everything, I'd be a bit miffed.

If you are seriously telling me that you would happily level you way up to the limit in a MMORPG then just take it on the chin when you're killed and all of your work is gone?

Actually I take back my statement, you're either a buddhist or a masochist.
Have I got the perfect game for you!

http://progressquest.com/
 

BiffyClyroEqualsSex

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Nov 9, 2009
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It depends. It could word if you used some of these ideas:


If it didn't take too long to get to level up: This would take away the frustration of putting hours and hours into a character only to have to start again

If you die you can make a new character starting on half the level of your old character: I'm not sure if this would work as you would need to start with equipment for your level, but it would mean there is a punishment for dying but you could start again without having to go through the early levels again, meaning less frustration

Also if you only have certain areas where its perma death I can see it being used to create so much tension. Imagine it: your running through a dungeon killing innocent spiders (or whatever) then suddenly the perma death warning flashes up at the top of the screen. You know this means that there could be a boss round the next corner, possibly one you can't handle at your level -the rewards would be good- yet will you risk it...



These are my thoughts, any other ideas??