The Avengers and Hawkeye [Mass Opinion Centered]

[Biosophilogical]

Jeremy Renner 10/10 would bang.

As an asexual, I have to agree.

Are people talking shit about me again

Don't worry, I still love you. See above.

]OT: Hawkeye? Loved him to bits. A shame he got *plot event* by *character* near the *point in movie-relative time*, though it did give him a fair chunk of time to show off his abilities against the Avengers.

Also, I seem to have a terrible time 'placing' Jeremy Renner. He looks so familiar, and he's cameo'd in a few things I've watched, but without wikipedia I'd never have placed him.

 

[irishda]

The important thing to understand is the next batch of Marvel movies/Avengers is going to be focused on outer space/cosmic forces/magic. Now, let's consider which of these three situations is going to require a guy with a bow and arrow (yes even a bow with "trick" arrows, like that's the only delivery system for explosives, plugs, etc.) or a girl who's good at martial arts and has a gun (it's not even a big gun or a special gun). At what point is either of those going to be preferable to a superhuman monster who fucks up gods, a man who can build indestructible suits of armor complete with lasers, rockets, and guns, a demi-god, and a super-soldier with an indestructible piece of equipment who can also carry a gun?

Movie audiences generally don't put up with the real kitschy or ridiculous stuff comic books tend to bring to the table in terms of situations and superheroes.

 

[Aurgelmir]

In the meantime: Spiderman isn't even included in the movie.
Hell, I'd even accept it if they used Ant man.

Are we still raging about no spider-man in a movie about a team that historically never featured spider-man? *Sigh*

I could also list quite a few heroes that should be in an Avengers movie before Spider-man.

Ant Man was an original founding member of the Avengers together with Wasp, so the fact that neither was in the movie kinda sucked.

Scarlet Witch and Quick silver are also high up on the list of potential members.

But the fact is that Hawkeye has historically been an important member of the Avengers, and has also lead the team several times, so I would have been really disappointed if they removed him from the list because he lacked enough power. Heck I have had none comic book fan friends state that Captain America didn't fit in the movie because even he isn't powerful enough.

 

[AgentCooper]

Considering he's using a weapon that went out of style about the same time people stopped wearing armor against supernatural forces possessed of equipment and technology far beyond any of our capabilities, I'd say his superior accuracy would be much better suited for something like, I don't know, a fucking gun. Oh, he can put an arrow through my heart? This gun can blow up my chest cavity from a mile away. Which should we have him use?

And Black Widow? I can understand the need for a person with infiltration skills, and she even has the common sense to use a gun too. But it's common knowledge that the next batch of Marvel movies are gonna be moving the heroes into outer space, having them deal with magic and cosmic forces. And when you've got a finite roster to deal with here, who would you prefer; superhuman beings that can take a hit from the Hulk/withstand bullets/can fire laser rockets, or a regular person who's super good at martial arts and really accurate with a weapon that people stopped using around the same time they realized germs are a thing.

That's part of the problem with comics, some heroes were created with the idea of "this would be cool if someone's super good at x" regardless of the context of the comic universe they exist in. The movie-going public generally doesn't accept that the first people the government's gonna call when we're threatened by alien forces is "that guy with the bow and arrow" and "the girl with the small gun and sweet fist-fighting skills". They're so terribly situational that it seems impractical to have them at all.

Having a compact bow with on the fly interchangeable arrow heads built in with the quiver. I don't see how that's out dated especially when people still use bows today for various use. Also, Hawkeye and black widow are HIGHLY TRAINED assassins that are masters in their respective art. Seriously, the best comparison I've seen so far mentioned was to Batman.

 

[spartan231490]

Hawkeye is lame because his only ability is to fire bows really accurately(impossibly accurately) without being human. It's bs. He sucks. Literally, the only reason he has any place on the avengers is because he can do things that are impossible. That would be ok, if he had super-powers, but he doesn't, so get that shit out of her.

 

[irishda]

Having a compact bow with on the fly interchangeable arrow heads built in with the quiver. I don't see how that's out dated especially when people still use bows today for various use. Also, Hawkeye and black widow are HIGHLY TRAINED assassins that are masters in their respective art. Seriously, the best comparison I've seen so far mentioned was to Batman.

The various uses of the bow these days is pretty much just hunting. Everything else has a far better delivery system (grenade launchers can be retro-fitted to fire pretty much anything), faster reloading, greater accuracy, more power, and the projectiles AREN'T subsonic rounds that can be avoided or blocked by even NORMAL humans with NORMAL, even incredibly outdated technology.

They may very well be HIGHLY TRAINED, but what part of their training dealt with alien anatomy and technology, or countermeasures for magical and cosmic forces? Batman hasn't fought aliens in ANY of his live action movies, and even he uses technology made beyond the 17th century.

There's nothing wrong with their abilities, per se, the problem's in their methods. Wouldn't Hawkeye be more effective with a high powered sniper rifle or an assault rifle? And I've got nothing against someone being super awesome at hand to hand skills, but martial arts stops being effective against something with the same body type as, say, a gorilla.

 

[irishda]

Let's get this straight. Hawkeye, a secret agent who has dead-accurate aim and could pinpoint an arrow to pierce through your clothing, skin, ribs and heart at the perfect angel to kill you instantly, is lame? What kind of thinking is that? Did we watch the same movie? The guy, with ONE FUCKING ARROW makes an explosion so large in the Shield aircraft's turbine that the whole thing was at risk to plummet. Not to mention, did you see him miss a shot during that last battle? The guy is smart as all fuck, too. He knew Loki would catch his arrow, so he shoots and explosive arrow to him and blows it in his face. Really, the mere thought of stating this guy is lame baffles. Even in Comparison to the other Avengers.

Take all that stuff he does, and now ask yourself: Why couldn't he do any of that with a gun?

Guns make explosions all the time in movies, and bullets are impossible to catch. The guy's lame because his place in a world with aliens and magic is kind of limited, but they can't change his M.O. because then the fanboys would be pissed off that the guy known for using a bow isn't using a bow.

 

[AgentCooper]

Having a compact bow with on the fly interchangeable arrow heads built in with the quiver. I don't see how that's out dated especially when people still use bows today for various use. Also, Hawkeye and black widow are HIGHLY TRAINED assassins that are masters in their respective art. Seriously, the best comparison I've seen so far mentioned was to Batman.

The various uses of the bow these days is pretty much just hunting. Everything else has a far better delivery system (grenade launchers can be retro-fitted to fire pretty much anything), faster reloading, greater accuracy, more power, and the projectiles AREN'T subsonic rounds that can be avoided or blocked by even NORMAL humans with NORMAL, even incredibly outdated technology.

They may very well be HIGHLY TRAINED, but what part of their training dealt with alien anatomy and technology, or countermeasures for magical and cosmic forces? Batman hasn't fought aliens in ANY of his live action movies, and even he uses technology made beyond the 17th century.

There's nothing wrong with their abilities, per se, the problem's in their methods. Wouldn't Hawkeye be more effective with a high powered sniper rifle or an assault rifle? And I've got nothing against someone being super awesome at hand to hand skills, but martial arts stops being effective against something with the same body type as, say, a gorilla.

Hawkeye would be a boring character if he just used high tech guns all the time. He would just be another Shield agent. He is considered a mysterious character with a deep past. They did announce a Hawkeye spin off movie that should answer more questions and why he favors a bow and how his training progressed.

This is more of personal analysis and I'm intentionally bias since I consider bows a hobby of mine.

 

[MorganL4]

Guy is good with bow...um ok... doesn't sound like a superhero to me. Sounds like a guy who could win a medal or two at the olympics.

For starters, THE GUY IS NOT A SUPER HERO! He never was supposed to be, he is a SHIELD agent/assassin He and Black Widow are on the team to give Fury a bit more influence as to how things go down. The rest of the Avengers can be rather loose cannons ( except maybe for Cap) Basically they are the most combat competent normal people in SHIELD, in other words they are good enough to hold their own around a giant green rage monster and a viking god, and they give Fury 2 votes every time the team decides to do something.

 

[Rottweiler]

Honestly, what I think is that people miss the whole idea of the Avengers.

The Avengers are a Team. Each member brings something to the Team aside from 'superpowers'.

Iron Man built most of the Avenger's equipment and vehicles, to say nothing of their bases (both coasts, I beleive.)

Captain America had decades of combat experience and training- his tactical knowledge was far greater than any other member of the Avengers, since he pretty much served through all of World War II. (Yes the movie screwed that up, but in Canon he served the entire War.)

Or, to put it in perspective:

Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk were massive beatdown artists.

However, what about espionage? Not one of them was capable of sneaking into a villain's lair and getting the layout, or figuring out how many guards there were.

Of course, Black Widow could do that in her sleep. Which is *why* she was on the Team.

Also remember that Hawkeye was basically a version of Captain America, he was the leader of the West Coast Avengers while Cap was in charge of the main Avengers. It's a little confusing that they put him in with the main group for the movie.

 

[irishda]

Hawkeye would be a boring character if he just used high tech guns all the time. He would just be another Shield agent. He is considered a mysterious character with a deep past. They did announce a Hawkeye spin off movie that should answer more questions and why he favors a bow and how his training progressed.

This is more of personal analysis and I'm intentionally bias since I consider bows a hobby of mine.

And therein lies the point. Hawkeye can't be removed from his M.O. because then he's not Hawkeye (at least in the traditional sense), but his place in the Avengers universe is out of place and kind of a stretch.

In his own movie, he'd probably be fine (as long as there's no more no-look, behind-the-back, hit-a-moving-target shots) depending on the villains and the situation. But in a world of magic and aliens, it's hard to accept him as a plausible threat.

 

[AgentCooper]

Hawkeye would be a boring character if he just used high tech guns all the time. He would just be another Shield agent. He is considered a mysterious character with a deep past. They did announce a Hawkeye spin off movie that should answer more questions and why he favors a bow and how his training progressed.

This is more of personal analysis and I'm intentionally bias since I consider bows a hobby of mine.

And therein lies the point. Hawkeye can't be removed from his M.O. because then he's not Hawkeye (at least in the traditional sense), but his place in the Avengers universe is out of place and kind of a stretch.

In his own movie, he'd probably be fine (as long as there's no more no-look, behind-the-back, hit-a-moving-target shots) depending on the villains and the situation. But in a world of magic and aliens, it's hard to accept him as a plausible threat.

Not out of place at all when he has tranquilizer arrows to keep Hulk in line. Hawkeye is still human and knows his limitations and even the movie shows the flaws perfectly of being an archer. Not at any point of The Avengers was Hawkeye over his head in any battle situation and he held his own with Captain America on the ground and as a spotter.

 

[LadyRhian]

I actually think it's kind of insulting to say that the Black Widow was there for "Lolboobs". Did you see that scene in the beginning where she beats up three Russian gangsters/Former military while tied to a chair? She can kick ass, and so can Hawkeye with his bow Both of them are stealthy assassin-types meant for infiltration and taking down people with silent, precise force.

I liked the backstory they gave her and Hawkeye because it sort of acknowledged that both of them were former villains. In fact, I think that is what Hawkeye's being taken over in the movie was supposed to evoke, his past as a villain before he changed his mind and took up being a hero. (He was a reluctant villain, sort of the same as in the movie.) And in the comics, he also had a relationship with Black Widow, though he ends up marrying another fellow Avenger, Mockingbird. He's an expert with all fired weapons, but prefers the bow. He also designed his own arrowheads... but just imagine how much more badass they could be if Tony Stark came up with some ideas for him...

The point of the Avengers is that no one of those characters can fight these sorts of battles on their own. Each has a role, and that's what makes them a well-rounded team. Not all the battles they fight are going to be going toe to toe with an alien invasion. In fact, the kind of attitude you are displaying towards Hawkeye and his bow is the same sort of thing that the villains do. They see a guy with a bow, and automatically discount him because "Bows are lame and not as powerful/deadly as guns." They probably don't get to underestimate him more than once, though.

 

[Shadowkire]

Hawkeye isn't lame as such. He's a lot like batman.
But he isn't super human in any capacity. The same goes for Black widow. I don't know what they're doing there.

They would be cool if they had their own movie(s), but when they're set up to play beside a)A god, b)An artificially engineered super-soldier, c)A guy in flying indestructo-armor with guns strapped all over it and d)A practically unkillable troll that's stronger than anything on earth, they end up sort of pale and boring.

Let me use Black widow to make my point: Aside from her martial arts capability, her "power" is basically "gun". Well, there's a different guy there with super human strength, the ability to fly, and super-technological projectile weapons fixed to his entire body.
The only thing she brings to The avengers is basically the ability to cover one more angle. And boobs.

In the meantime: Spiderman isn't even included in the movie.
Hell, I'd even accept it if they used Ant man.

The only thing that lets Hawkeye do anything of value in the movie is the mercy of the writers.

Movie rights keep Spiderman out of the Avengers, and with all this groaning for "has a bow" do you think it would be any better for "can become small."

 

[JediMB]

He's probably even made of tougher stuff in general, considering his arms didn't shatter when Thor smacked his shield

That was the vibranium shield, actually. It took the force of Thor's strike and dispersed it. Hence the shockwave.

 

[Aurgelmir]

Having a compact bow with on the fly interchangeable arrow heads built in with the quiver. I don't see how that's out dated especially when people still use bows today for various use. Also, Hawkeye and black widow are HIGHLY TRAINED assassins that are masters in their respective art. Seriously, the best comparison I've seen so far mentioned was to Batman.

The various uses of the bow these days is pretty much just hunting. Everything else has a far better delivery system (grenade launchers can be retro-fitted to fire pretty much anything), faster reloading, greater accuracy, more power, and the projectiles AREN'T subsonic rounds that can be avoided or blocked by even NORMAL humans with NORMAL, even incredibly outdated technology.

They may very well be HIGHLY TRAINED, but what part of their training dealt with alien anatomy and technology, or countermeasures for magical and cosmic forces? Batman hasn't fought aliens in ANY of his live action movies, and even he uses technology made beyond the 17th century.

There's nothing wrong with their abilities, per se, the problem's in their methods. Wouldn't Hawkeye be more effective with a high powered sniper rifle or an assault rifle? And I've got nothing against someone being super awesome at hand to hand skills, but martial arts stops being effective against something with the same body type as, say, a gorilla.

Okay Reasons a bow beats a grenade launcher:
-The weapon itself is lighter and less complicated
-The rounds are also less complicated
-Last I checked grenade launchers were still rather big, so his agility would be hampered.
-Also the arrows just change the arrow head in his state of the art quiver. making them so much more versatile than a grenade launcher that can shoot anything, due to most of the ammo being reusable.
-Sub sonic. Meaning you can use the environmental conditions to your play (see arrow vs Hellicarrier)


All in all people need to stop whining about how it's not logical. It's a comic book character, he uses a bow because it looks cool. Deal with it.

 

[WolfThomas]

Really? Thats what I found the most lame about Hawkeye and Black Widow (disclaimer: I have not read the comics). The fact they are just "super good with X". I find it unrealistic. All the others have some kind of cool, kind of plausible excuse as to why they are superheroes, while these are just "uhhm... I'm just really good lol". I mean, c'mon... no one can get that good without some sort of mumbo jumbo being done to them

Well yeah, Ultimate Hawkeye has enhanced eyes, lens that can adjust shape and size rapidly, greater than 6/1 vision and better movement perception at the loss of colour vision. Both normal black widow and ultimate version are enhanced by nanites. Really they didn't tell those two were powerless. Maybe they'll explore that in a later movie.

Though yeah in the marvel universe, normal human limits are far greater than ours. It's a long story involving space gods for another day.

 

[Jonluw]

Hawkeye isn't lame as such. He's a lot like batman.
But he isn't super human in any capacity. The same goes for Black widow. I don't know what they're doing there.

They would be cool if they had their own movie(s), but when they're set up to play beside a)A god, b)An artificially engineered super-soldier, c)A guy in flying indestructo-armor with guns strapped all over it and d)A practically unkillable troll that's stronger than anything on earth, they end up sort of pale and boring.

Let me use Black widow to make my point: Aside from her martial arts capability, her "power" is basically "gun". Well, there's a different guy there with super human strength, the ability to fly, and super-technological projectile weapons fixed to his entire body.
The only thing she brings to The avengers is basically the ability to cover one more angle. And boobs.

In the meantime: Spiderman isn't even included in the movie.
Hell, I'd even accept it if they used Ant man.

The only thing that lets Hawkeye do anything of value in the movie is the mercy of the writers.

Movie rights keep Spiderman out of the Avengers, and with all this groaning for "has a bow" do you think it would be any better for "can become small."

http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-it-sucks-to-be-ant-man-forgotten-avenger/

^A good read.

I'm just saying Spiderman would be cool. Although not as useful as Thor and the bunch. And yeah, there are lots of silly Marvel characters.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

I really liked both Black Widow and Hawkeye. I hope they'll get their own movie, now that the avenger movies was so good. It seems like they had a past too, so they might be able to make one movie for them both.