Timothy Plan Updates "Do Not Buy List" of Videogames for the Holiday Season
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I'm moved. This is an awesome list with detailed descriptions, almost like the Parents Guide on IMDB. It answers the age old question of "are there any tits in this game/movie" translated it means is it worth watching/playing 
. If I want to know precisely how much of the good stuff there is in a game, I'll consult this list.
. If I want to know precisely how much of the good stuff there is in a game, I'll consult this list.
Good for them that they have their little list. And it's actually quite nice to see ethics even being taken into account when investing for once, pathetically puritanical as these particular norms themselves might be.
I wonder if there are any investment plan options for those who wish to undermine and get rid of all the parts of Judeo-Christian morals that aren't pinched off Greek thinkers?
I wonder if there are any investment plan options for those who wish to undermine and get rid of all the parts of Judeo-Christian morals that aren't pinched off Greek thinkers?
While I am a lapsed Catholic and really don't know what to believe (I'm more agnostic than atheist) it does trouble me that it seems to be okay to make fun and condemn people for having Christian beliefs and morality structured around those beliefs but God forbid you say anything about (not attacking but anything judging or questioning) any other form of religion.geoflo1024 said:
We live in a time where someone like Richard Dawkins is looked at as a god to many people and use his writings and lectures the way a Christian will use the Book of Acts. Don't get me wrong, no religion or lack of religion bothers me in the least. Every form has both good and bad examples of humanity, it's the extremists that do the most harm to what they are trying to be an example of and spread.
As I said before, I'm a lapsed Catholic and I get so tired of hearing the jokes about the priests that molest children (which is a horrible thing) when it happens with every denomination but only reported on when it's a priest.
Morality is skewed with the world now and so they bash Christianity as a way to excuse themselves for doing what they know is wrong. It's kind of funny when you think that many of the people who proudly scream that they are atheists and how Christians are wrong about their beliefs then spout off about evolution is a much better explanation for life than creationism are actually the least evolved, most animal like in their behaviors.
Now, I played the hell out of Final Fantasy 13 when it came out so its been a while since ive played through the story but did I miss the gay/lesbian sex scene that must have been in the game in order for it garner top marks in sex and "gay/lesbian".
I wonder if Timothy Plan has ever played Heart of Darkness, a rated E for Everyone PS1 game that really doesn't deserve that rating.
I have mixed opinions here. This is one of those situations where I might not agree with the people making the list entirely (despite being a Christian, albiet not a deeply spiritual one myself), but the people who are voicing disagreement are actually being worse and far less reasonable.
Let me be honest, a lot of these values are not "antiquidated", most of them stand up pretty well on their own even when you remove the religious reasons from them. I'm a massive war monger, and very militant, I've advocated things like torture in certain situations, but I still believe violence in general is something to be avoided.
This list is being written from the perspective of buying games for kids (as I read it) and trying to instill certain basic values in them. Once you have that core established, then you can start messing with it by showing things that are wrong in a somewhat differant context, or even reveling in exploring your dark side as the bad guy, without actually going there yourself.
I think what a lot of people misunderstand is that a lot of the justifications that exist for violence in these games are based on fantasy, incredible situations, or in a sort of parallel reality where things are a bit differant from how they are in the real world (even if it's supposed to be the real world). I don't think games make people violent in of themselves, but I do think that kids who are raised with the media going on about codes like "Omerta" and how the system doesn't work and the only way to get justice is to get it yourself... or that merely seeking "Justice" is pointless when you can have revenge, are not totally going to "get" that the lessons of the game have no bearing on them in real life. It's especially problematic when dealing with games based on real groups (gangs, etc..) that operate that way.
Kids have always been violent, but part of raising them is to reign in those inherant tendencies. While violence has it's place, I think there can be issues with kids having no respect for the system, or even trying to use it and giving it a chance of failing. Got a problem? Head out and settle it with your fists, a gun, or a club, or whatever. To be honest this problem has always existed to some extent, video games are not unique in fueling it, but you have to understand that they can have an influance like any other media, and while they should not be controlled by the goverment, parents should indeed be very careful about what they provide for their kids. Truthfully, even if the violence is less intense overall I personally have more of an issue with guys like "50 Cent", and stuff like "The Sopranos", and various gang-related productions that have a grounding in reality and a lifestyle some people are living (or trying to advocate) than say "Nightmare On Elm Street" movies which is pure fantasy and what's wrong is clearly defined. When Tony Soprano has someone whacked on TV it's wrong, but the point of the show is that you can see where he's coming from, with Freddy Kruegar the guy is pure evil, there is no empathy for why he's doing this stuff.
In short I think "Violence" and "Cartoon violence" are bad ways of designating things, especially for teens. It's media with a message, or expecting you to empathize with people doing this stuff enough to seriously suspend belief while you consume it that is a problem. Even if you cut 99% of the violence out of a "Grand Theft Auto" game I'd still say it should be rated "M" for the same reason I don't think "The Sopranos" is appropriate viewing material for children (especially older ones who can understand it without the maturity).
The point here being that I oppose censorship, and I believe that there is nothing wrong with adult media, which should continue to grow more intense as time goes on. I do however believe that certain things are not for kids, lists like this are a tool parents can use to help them with their parenting and desician making. I don't think the standards being used in most cases are all that unreasonable. I'm in support of people wanting to share these kinds of opinions with parents, I just don't think the goverment should be intervening to try and make the entire world "kid safe" and destroy any media directed at an age level higher than 12.
For those that read this far, I will say that I can see why "Alan Wake" made the list. It's a bit differant, but it comes down to the "Sopranos" type arguement I was making above. I would suspect their stated reasons (girl in her underwear) have little to do with it. This game is very specifically stated as a "psychological horror" game and tends to be pretty intense, while the violence isn't over the top, there is plenty of it, and it deals with a lot of disturbing issues and imagery. This is the kind of game that is going to give your kids nightmares. Oh sure, it's pure fantasy, but it also seems more like something that could happen compared to a lot of other games, and to be honest the protaganist is a complete twit. Of course conveying this in a rating to someone who hasn't played the game is difficult.
But then again, I have fond childhood memories of sitting down and watching movies like "Friday The 13th", "A Nightmare On Elm Street", "Hellraiser" and others and even if gruesome, the entire thing is so over the top that most teens are going to get a thrill out of it, but are ulimatly still going to have a solid core of deniability present in the whole experience. You might have nightmares for a couple of days after one of those movies (and that is also what might wind up getting you hooked on horror movies), a 12 year old playing Alan Wake? Well if they understand it I think that can lead to a bigger problem than "OMG, what if I find a killer puzzle box that opens a doorway to hell?". Watching horror movies is part of the teenage experience (in my opinion) good girlfriend bonding material too... consider though that beyond "Alan Wake", guys like "Freddy Kruegar" don't exist, but gangsters do, and 50-cent is a real person who sells that persona.
Let me be honest, a lot of these values are not "antiquidated", most of them stand up pretty well on their own even when you remove the religious reasons from them. I'm a massive war monger, and very militant, I've advocated things like torture in certain situations, but I still believe violence in general is something to be avoided.
This list is being written from the perspective of buying games for kids (as I read it) and trying to instill certain basic values in them. Once you have that core established, then you can start messing with it by showing things that are wrong in a somewhat differant context, or even reveling in exploring your dark side as the bad guy, without actually going there yourself.
I think what a lot of people misunderstand is that a lot of the justifications that exist for violence in these games are based on fantasy, incredible situations, or in a sort of parallel reality where things are a bit differant from how they are in the real world (even if it's supposed to be the real world). I don't think games make people violent in of themselves, but I do think that kids who are raised with the media going on about codes like "Omerta" and how the system doesn't work and the only way to get justice is to get it yourself... or that merely seeking "Justice" is pointless when you can have revenge, are not totally going to "get" that the lessons of the game have no bearing on them in real life. It's especially problematic when dealing with games based on real groups (gangs, etc..) that operate that way.
Kids have always been violent, but part of raising them is to reign in those inherant tendencies. While violence has it's place, I think there can be issues with kids having no respect for the system, or even trying to use it and giving it a chance of failing. Got a problem? Head out and settle it with your fists, a gun, or a club, or whatever. To be honest this problem has always existed to some extent, video games are not unique in fueling it, but you have to understand that they can have an influance like any other media, and while they should not be controlled by the goverment, parents should indeed be very careful about what they provide for their kids. Truthfully, even if the violence is less intense overall I personally have more of an issue with guys like "50 Cent", and stuff like "The Sopranos", and various gang-related productions that have a grounding in reality and a lifestyle some people are living (or trying to advocate) than say "Nightmare On Elm Street" movies which is pure fantasy and what's wrong is clearly defined. When Tony Soprano has someone whacked on TV it's wrong, but the point of the show is that you can see where he's coming from, with Freddy Kruegar the guy is pure evil, there is no empathy for why he's doing this stuff.
In short I think "Violence" and "Cartoon violence" are bad ways of designating things, especially for teens. It's media with a message, or expecting you to empathize with people doing this stuff enough to seriously suspend belief while you consume it that is a problem. Even if you cut 99% of the violence out of a "Grand Theft Auto" game I'd still say it should be rated "M" for the same reason I don't think "The Sopranos" is appropriate viewing material for children (especially older ones who can understand it without the maturity).
The point here being that I oppose censorship, and I believe that there is nothing wrong with adult media, which should continue to grow more intense as time goes on. I do however believe that certain things are not for kids, lists like this are a tool parents can use to help them with their parenting and desician making. I don't think the standards being used in most cases are all that unreasonable. I'm in support of people wanting to share these kinds of opinions with parents, I just don't think the goverment should be intervening to try and make the entire world "kid safe" and destroy any media directed at an age level higher than 12.
For those that read this far, I will say that I can see why "Alan Wake" made the list. It's a bit differant, but it comes down to the "Sopranos" type arguement I was making above. I would suspect their stated reasons (girl in her underwear) have little to do with it. This game is very specifically stated as a "psychological horror" game and tends to be pretty intense, while the violence isn't over the top, there is plenty of it, and it deals with a lot of disturbing issues and imagery. This is the kind of game that is going to give your kids nightmares. Oh sure, it's pure fantasy, but it also seems more like something that could happen compared to a lot of other games, and to be honest the protaganist is a complete twit. Of course conveying this in a rating to someone who hasn't played the game is difficult.
But then again, I have fond childhood memories of sitting down and watching movies like "Friday The 13th", "A Nightmare On Elm Street", "Hellraiser" and others and even if gruesome, the entire thing is so over the top that most teens are going to get a thrill out of it, but are ulimatly still going to have a solid core of deniability present in the whole experience. You might have nightmares for a couple of days after one of those movies (and that is also what might wind up getting you hooked on horror movies), a 12 year old playing Alan Wake? Well if they understand it I think that can lead to a bigger problem than "OMG, what if I find a killer puzzle box that opens a doorway to hell?". Watching horror movies is part of the teenage experience (in my opinion) good girlfriend bonding material too... consider though that beyond "Alan Wake", guys like "Freddy Kruegar" don't exist, but gangsters do, and 50-cent is a real person who sells that persona.
Apparently lots of people are taking issue with this guy. I'm not sure why. He's kind of just pointing out stuff from games that parents might want to know about and base there buying on. Don't you think its possible that parents might want to have their young children avoid nudity and violence (for a while). I know there are quiet a few people who believe any restriction is a bad thing and anarchy is the only way, but I think getting mad at this guy who even says that he's not trying to ban stuff just inform some people is a waste.
Yeah a parent would totally do that... if that parent was an incompetent IDIOT.Jamash said:
*Nitpick* *Nitpick*
But hey you're a refreshing change, actually talking about the list itself. Unlike the morons who are debating the morals and belief the list is based on. Could those people take their stupid religious debates somewhere else?
Anyways back to the list.
This list is completely understandable in a lot of aspects. Some of these games I wouldn't by for my children even if I didn't look at the "reasons" listed for not getting it. For L4D you just have to look at the cover. Of course that would probably just be because I'm well versed in the knowledge of games and their content.
I just wish that parents took the time to learn more about games on their own so they wouldn't need lists like these. Then those lists wouldn't need to be made, and then STUUUPID religious discussions like the one in this thread wouldn't start.
EDIT: Just made a more thorough read of the list itself. Did someone actually play through these games? Some of the reasons for not buying it are quite thorough. Like with Red Dead, those are very specific examples.
It sounds to me like some guys at the Timothy Investment Firm figured out a way to play videogames on the company dime. I'll write up all the morally conservative claptrap they want if it means getting paid big bucks to survey video games and inform the conservative right that yes, indeed, these games are filled sex, debauchery, and violence!
Indeed....reminds me of racists who like to clarify that they "have lots of black friends," before going on a tirade about how "they" are making the neighborhood go bad, or leaching off the economy, or whatever their current peeve is. As if somehow suggesting that aknowledging the existence of group X suddenly grants that individual the right to whatever bias they want.Josdeb said:
The problem with the christian perspective on homesexuality is they think its a choice, and feel that they can somehow be "open" to gays, as long as it is understood that the only purpose of such openness is to eventually "convert" them to the straight and narrow christian perspective. There is no respect at all for the actual people in question, to recognition or even willingness to consider that their own perspective might be wrong, no matter how much evidence is stacked against them. Irrational beliefs are hard to topple, unfortunately, and religious beliefs are as irrational as they come.
"Fallout: New Vegas . . . and there is a scene which suggests one of the characters has had sex with a robot."
BWAH HA HA!
BWAH HA HA!
Oh, also!
"Fable 3: GAY & LESBIAN: Homosexual Themes: Players can choose themselves if they would like to be straight, gay or lesbian, or bisexual. Relationships
and marriages can occur within the game. Gay couples can have sex in the game, and can adopt children to form a family."
We must make sure our children don't know that such a thing as homosexuality exists! People can MARRY in this game!? THE HORROR!
"Fable 3: GAY & LESBIAN: Homosexual Themes: Players can choose themselves if they would like to be straight, gay or lesbian, or bisexual. Relationships
and marriages can occur within the game. Gay couples can have sex in the game, and can adopt children to form a family."
We must make sure our children don't know that such a thing as homosexuality exists! People can MARRY in this game!? THE HORROR!
Why is everyone getting so damn upset over this? This is EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED as an industry. We're free to produce and buy whatever we want, and people concerned about what their children are playing get a resource to guide their choices. Instead of a mandatory ban on selling M-rated games to minors, somebody peruses the games and says "This is potentially offensive. Just an FYI." No attempts to censor games or sponsor game-regulating legislation.
With systems like this in place, we have some recourse when somebody starts ripping on games. We can say "Well, you let your child play that game because YOU didn't do adequate research. There are sites like Timothy Plan that tell you exactly which games might offend you. So don't pin this shit on US."
With systems like this in place, we have some recourse when somebody starts ripping on games. We can say "Well, you let your child play that game because YOU didn't do adequate research. There are sites like Timothy Plan that tell you exactly which games might offend you. So don't pin this shit on US."
lolololololololololGreg Tito said:
Prepare for some truly ass-backwards logic from this group.
Any organization using the words "Christian Values" in its mission statement is usually so radically over the top in their interpretation of everything that all you can do is watch the idiocy.
A perfect example of people talking about games when they didn't, in fact, ACTUALLY PLAY the damn thing. Sure, some you can judge by their cover, like GTA or God of War, but if you aren't a gamer, don't talk about games as if you know about them. You are almost definitely wrong.
Like the first poster, I fail to see the point of writing this up. This article feels like a shallow attempt to incite flaming against this specific group of people. I mean, the formula for feel-good mob mentality flaming is pretty simple:
1. Find something a small group of people are doing.
2. Locate a group of people who aren't really affected by this but who disagree with it.
3. Tell Group B about Group A.
4. Everyone gets to have a nice big feel-good griping session.
The best part about this is it takes practically no effort on the part of the original poster. I see this kind of thing all the time on Gamefaqs and other boards, and it's really pointless. I mean, this group is basically powerless, apart from a TINY minority of parents who MIGHT use this website.
There are always people who will judge the content of anything without examining the context.
1. Find something a small group of people are doing.
2. Locate a group of people who aren't really affected by this but who disagree with it.
3. Tell Group B about Group A.
4. Everyone gets to have a nice big feel-good griping session.
The best part about this is it takes practically no effort on the part of the original poster. I see this kind of thing all the time on Gamefaqs and other boards, and it's really pointless. I mean, this group is basically powerless, apart from a TINY minority of parents who MIGHT use this website.
There are always people who will judge the content of anything without examining the context.
True, when you are a maniacal mass murderer I guess it is silly to just focus on the multitude of small children/infants that the mass murderer killed. I mean, those children were asking for it. And those infants. And every male. And every female. Everyone except a man who would interbreed with his family after getting drunk.Ultratwinkie said: