"Western games don't have good storys"

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Sturgeon's Law. That's all I have to say on this matter.

But if youb want the longer veriosn:
Both he and you are both grossly generalizing on the west and east respecitvely. If you want to make the arguement that all JRPGs have crap stories, I could just as quickly say that most FPS games have crap stories. For every Chrono Trigger and Modern Warfare, there's at least 50 FFXIIIs and Homefronts. Don't go using Bioware either, or I can use Atlus. There is no superior storyteller.

And honestly, I was disgusted that the Escapist, a community that prides itself on their intelligence in gaming discussion, took one single line from a video about movie adaptations of videogames, and took it as a chance to turn it into the age ol' flamewar of East vs West.

This. This site may have a strong western bias, but the truth is that both sides are pretty equal. You even pulled Atlus before I could.

 

[mechanixis]

Bob does have some occidental otaku tendencies. He has a habit of putting Japan on a pedestal while dismissing the west as a bland, homogenized Gears of War culture.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.

Bob even liked Avatar so it's not as if he's got much credibility anyway

If you watch the Review of it, he said the story is tired and cliche, so he didnt like it for the story. Good try though.

OT: He has a point. Western games' stories are all really bland when you look at it on paper, but the immersion into them is stunningly good it makes you look past it.

meanwhile (and contrary to what most people would say), in Eastern games, the stories can be varied and complex after working from the basic level, but the way its told and immersion into it seems bland and hard to find after its saturated in angst, pointy hair, and melodrama.

He liked Boondock Saints 2, Red Riding Hood, Repo Men, Splice, Predators and Machete too.

I kept waiting for the punchline in his BS2 review, but it never came. That's when I realized he loves shitty movies.

Don't go cracking on Machete now. That was exploitation goodness.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

 

[PettingZOOPONY]

I love every crappy story in video game form.

 

[mechanixis]

You got trolled by Moviebob again.

The best part is

now dont get me wrong Im not about to go ranting about Moviebob even after all the crazy stuff he said about PC gaming dying I dont have to agree with him all the time to respect his opionion (no not in that case however, that just felt like trolling)

you know he's doing it and you fed it anyway.

Spoiler: This is relevant to your interests.

This is relevant to your interests.

I would love to know how you get paid to troll like that though, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Man, if you honestly think that MovieBob makes these opinions up to get a rise out of his listeners...that's like...you've been trolled by an internet culture that programs you to assume any statement that incites controversy is deliberate trolling. That's like getting inverse trolled.

 

[dfake]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

Man I hadn't finished X yet, thanks for ruining my day!

 

[mireko]

I'm not even asking for Tolstoy here. CRPGs cannot even match the level of story telling of a George Martin or a Heinlein.

A good story needs a clever plot, an interesting idea (preferably a philosophy or human behaviour in a crazy new scenario) and convincing dialogue.

1 The plot in games, when they have one, typically boils down to player character overcomes many obstacles and wins.
2 Interesting new ideas in games? I'm stumped. PS:T had what can change the nature of a man, but I already granted that PS:T is the only exception.
3 So dialogue... it's a little better here. Jokes and comedy can add to a good game.
Doesn't make a good story per se, but it can be entertaining in for example Lucas Arts adventure games. Hilariously bad voice acting can also work in games like Just Cause 2: bad story, stupid fun gameplay and a couple laughs.
Then there's rare games with both serious and good acting like Bloodlines(atleast some of it). Again the story isn't good, but the atmosphere in the game is improved.

Too often though the dialogue and VO just isn't good, but is also not bad enough to be funny.
Great example of this is Dragon Age. Serious attempts, but the dialogue is written too poorly and the voice actors cannot save it either, so you get something that is just mildly embarrasing to listen to. This is the level where most modern RPGs are at.

That's an amusingly arbitrary set of rules, but okay, I'll run with it.

1 The plot in games, when they have one, typically boils down to player character overcomes many obstacles and wins.

That's basically the plot of all fiction. Conflict, obstacles and the overcoming thereof. Yeah, there aren't that many tragedies in games outside the survival horror genre, but does that really matter?

2 Interesting new ideas in games? I'm stumped. PS:T had what can change the nature of a man, but I already granted that PS:T is the only exception.

"What can change the nature of a man?" is an interesting question, but it's only 'new' in the context of the game. Dragon Age had issues of race, culture and politics. Baldur's Gate had the whole Bhaalspawn plotline (determinism). Persona 4 questioned what it actually means to have an identity and what can be defined as one's "true self". New Vegas looked at how civilization would reform after a major disaster.

I don't think any of these are new ideas, but they're interesting in the context in which they're presented. Making the ideas interesting is more important than having a new one, because there really aren't any more new ideas.

3 So dialogue... it's a little better here. Jokes and comedy can add to a good game.

We've reached the point where voice work is largely adequate across the board. Good dialogue is less common, but not completely essential. Obsidian, BioWare, Tim Schafer and Valve all do a pretty good job of it, to use some Western examples.

Portal conveys most of its (admittedly silly, but comedic) story through monologue to great effect. Dragon Age has perfectly workable dialogue and voice work, even if it isn't as good as Mass Effect or Baldur's Gate.

It's still not perfect, but it doesn't really need to be. My definition of what makes a good story is different from yours, and maybe that's why our opinions differ, but these aren't bad stories.

 

[mechanixis]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

Well, pretty much because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5FTJxfV3pc

While game stories from both the east and west can sound pretty good on paper, there are a lot of genre conventions and failures of execution that trip them up. Halo's backstory and universe are actually pretty compelling if you dig around in the wiki, but the games make it all groan-inducing.

 

[L8NEYET]

Even though BioWare stories are pretty damn cliched, they present the stories well enough for them to be interesting and they know how to create interesting, likeable characters.

I'll admit most Western games don't have good stories, but neither to do most Eastern ones.

Obsidian probably does story and writing the best out of the major RPG developers.

I agree, no matter if you are Eastern, Western, or somewhere in between, it is all a matter of taste. One person might think the game they are playing is the most amazing game ever, while their friend looks at him like he is nuts. And just like any movie or book, everyone has their favorite author and director that they follow closely. I thought the story and deliverance of Bioshock, FF6, FF7, Shenmue, Fallout 3 and many others had great stories and held my attention while I fell in love with the characters and plots.

 

[veloper]

I'm not even asking for Tolstoy here. CRPGs cannot even match the level of story telling of a George Martin or a Heinlein.

A good story needs a clever plot, an interesting idea (preferably a philosophy or human behaviour in a crazy new scenario) and convincing dialogue.

1 The plot in games, when they have one, typically boils down to player character overcomes many obstacles and wins.
2 Interesting new ideas in games? I'm stumped. PS:T had what can change the nature of a man, but I already granted that PS:T is the only exception.
3 So dialogue... it's a little better here. Jokes and comedy can add to a good game.
Doesn't make a good story per se, but it can be entertaining in for example Lucas Arts adventure games. Hilariously bad voice acting can also work in games like Just Cause 2: bad story, stupid fun gameplay and a couple laughs.
Then there's rare games with both serious and good acting like Bloodlines(atleast some of it). Again the story isn't good, but the atmosphere in the game is improved.

Too often though the dialogue and VO just isn't good, but is also not bad enough to be funny.
Great example of this is Dragon Age. Serious attempts, but the dialogue is written too poorly and the voice actors cannot save it either, so you get something that is just mildly embarrasing to listen to. This is the level where most modern RPGs are at.

That's an amusingly arbitrary set of rules, but okay, I'll run with it.

1 The plot in games, when they have one, typically boils down to player character overcomes many obstacles and wins.

That's basically the plot of all fiction. Conflict, obstacles and the overcoming thereof. Yeah, there aren't that many tragedies in games outside the survival horror genre, but does that really matter?

2 Interesting new ideas in games? I'm stumped. PS:T had what can change the nature of a man, but I already granted that PS:T is the only exception.

"What can change the nature of a man?" is an interesting question, but it's only 'new' in the context of the game. Dragon Age had issues of race, culture and politics. Baldur's Gate had the whole Bhaalspawn plotline (determinism). Persona 4 questioned what it actually means to have an identity and what can be defined as one's "true self". New Vegas looked at how civilization would reform after a major disaster.

I don't think any of these are new ideas, but they're interesting in the context in which they're presented. Making the ideas interesting is more important than having a new one, because there really aren't any more new ideas.

3 So dialogue... it's a little better here. Jokes and comedy can add to a good game.

We've reached the point where voice work is largely adequate across the board. Good dialogue is less common, but not completely essential. Obsidian, BioWare, Tim Schafer and Valve all do a pretty good job of it, to use some Western examples.

Portal conveys most of its (admittedly silly, but comedic) story through monologue to great effect. Dragon Age has perfectly workable dialogue and voice work, even if it isn't as good as Mass Effect or Baldur's Gate.

It's still not perfect, but it doesn't really need to be. My definition of what makes a good story is different from yours, and maybe that's why our opinions differ, but these aren't bad stories.

I reckon it's the voice work (and the lines the actors have to work with) that has the most potential for improvement actually.

Gameplay, which is always about winning, gets in the way of a plot and new interesting ideas are hard to come up with (I disagree on BG, BG2, DA and New Vegas, I'm sorry), but VO of the calibre of Mark Hamill in Arkham Asylum or some of the stuff in Bloodlines can be entertaining on their own and also improve the atmosphere of a game.

Gameplay comes first, but atmosphere helps. Mediocre dialogues hurt the experience, but I suppose it's still nice to know what your actions represent in game and good dialogue appears to be atleast doable for some game studios.

So while subpar writing and acting have the biggest negative impact, gamers don't seem to mind (or even like) a poor plot or rehashed ideas (myself, I find these two things simply easier to ignore in a game, even if I don't get anything worthwhile out of them).

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

Well, pretty much because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5FTJxfV3pc

While game stories from both the east and west can sound pretty good on paper, there are a lot of genre conventions and failures of execution that trip them up. Halo's backstory and universe are actually pretty compelling if you dig around in the wiki, but the games make it all groan-inducing.

That's just a problem with the English voice acting though, not the story of the game.


I agree with you though, which is why I play the Japanese language version of Japanese games. That's what I judge my games on, what they were supposed to be by their makers, their original form.

 

[omegawyrm]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

Well, pretty much because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5FTJxfV3pc

While game stories from both the east and west can sound pretty good on paper, there are a lot of genre conventions and failures of execution that trip them up. Halo's backstory and universe are actually pretty compelling if you dig around in the wiki, but the games make it all groan-inducing.

You link that scene like it's some irrefutable condemnation of the game's writing. Do you really understand what's going on in that scene? It's forced and awkward because both of those characters are trying to cover up their lonely desperation. Tidus is gradually realizing he's not real and doesn't belong in the real world and he's going to have to murder his abusive father and Yuna is dealing with the fact that she has to sacrifice her life at the end of their quest. It's two people trying to find a single shred of comfort and happiness during their final days alive. And everyone stares at them awkwardly because they know what's coming.

I'm not saying it's perfectly acted, but if that's not compelling, I don't know what is.

Not that there's anything wrong with western games, but I've never played one that felt as poignant as Final Fantasy X. There are a ton of emotions that Western games don't even try to cover in their narratives.

 

[Sabiancym]

Finally y'all are wising up. I cannot wait for Extra Credit's fall from grace.

I thought I was the only one who thought those guys were completely wrong. I watch those videos and weep for the future of gaming. I think I disagree with almost everything they say, especially since they act like everything they say is 100% fact.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

final fantasy X....

Guy is a dream from the past there to kill his father who is the devil.....

Yeah the west got all the crappy stories...

False.


Guy is a dream of dead mages longing for their lost homeland so much that they subconsciously recreate it. Guy's father is a drunk loser who beats him and his mom, he's also a sports star, one day he vanishes. He ends up in the real world, becomes a decent guy, sacrifices himself for his best friend in order to postpone the end of the world.

Guy meets with his father after long trials and tribulations, shows him he has surpassed him, they reconcile and kill God, then they both die and hi-five in the afterlife.





I don't know who wouldn't like this, it gives me goosebumps just typing it out really. I suppose people just need to "get" this type of cool stuff in order to...well..find it cool I suppose .

Well, pretty much because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5FTJxfV3pc

While game stories from both the east and west can sound pretty good on paper, there are a lot of genre conventions and failures of execution that trip them up. Halo's backstory and universe are actually pretty compelling if you dig around in the wiki, but the games make it all groan-inducing.

You link that scene like it's some irrefutable condemnation of the game's writing. Do you really understand what's going on in that scene? It's forced and awkward because both of those characters are trying to cover up their lonely desperation. Tidus is gradually realizing he's not real and doesn't belong in the real world and he's going to have to murder his abusive father and Yuna is dealing with the fact that she has to sacrifice her life at the end of their quest. It's two people trying to find a single shred of comfort and happiness during their final days alive. And everyone stares at them awkwardly because they know what's coming.

I'm not saying it's perfectly acted, but if that's not compelling, I don't know what is.

Not that there's anything wrong with western games, but I've never played one that felt as poignant as Final Fantasy X. There are a ton of emotions that Western games don't even try to cover in their narratives.

Yeah, what you say is also true, albeit a completely different angle than the one I took about justifying it.


You'll notice that most players don't play games seriously enough to notice these more complex emotions. If you play a game like you're reading a book, being analytical about the events and not just looking to kill stuff, you get to enjoy them more and a wholly richer experience.


Most of the time, people complaining about stories in Jrpgs don't actually sit their ass down, suspend their stupid disbelief and focus on understanding what the hell is going on. If you don't do that then obviously stuff isn't going to be fun, that's common sense.

 

[pejhmon]

Half Life (2)

/thread